Introducing Passion Projects • Hacker News Board

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#61

Post by hypotext » Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 12:50 AM UTC

memset wrote: post #45

This is really neat! Kudos to github. Here is a question: as one of two engineers at a 6-person seed-round startup, what could we be doing to contribute to the ecosystem of people who support women in technology? We don't have the office space - much less the money - to find or sponsor a monthly talk. So within the context of running our business, what can we do? Sometimes I fear that, until we have a successful and…

You could contribute resources to Women in CS organizations at universities. I'm part of one, and we'd love to have engineers come in and give tech talks, especially about web development. You also could donate a bit to sponsor events (we hold events like "Interview Workshop sponsored by Google") or even offer internships. Every bit helps.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#62

Post by sp332 » Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 1:03 AM UTC

mlent wrote: post #59

sp332 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single individual event or person can be sexist. I understand the idea you are describing. That idea is not what the word "sexism" refers to. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sexism

Sexism is an institution, so to speak. A single individual could not "bring sexism into existence". Women do not have enough power, as it stands, to impose a systemic oppression of men. Perhaps in the future, or in some female dominated societies, sexism against men exists...but not in the United States.

There is such a thing as institutional sexism, but that is not the only kind. I have already linked to the definition if sexism. There are many possible manifestations if it, and you are only describing one of them.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#63

Post by lutusp » Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 1:05 AM UTC

mlent wrote: post #59

sp332 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single individual event or person can be sexist. I understand the idea you are describing. That idea is not what the word "sexism" refers to. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sexism

Sexism is an institution, so to speak. A single individual could not "bring sexism into existence". Women do not have enough power, as it stands, to impose a systemic oppression of men. Perhaps in the future, or in some female dominated societies, sexism against men exists...but not in the United States.

> Women do not have enough power, as it stands, to impose a systemic oppression of men.

And men don't have enough power to impose a systemic oppression of women -- for that, they need women to cooperate in their own oppression. Women voluntarily rise to the challenge.

> Perhaps in the future, or in some female dominated societies, sexism against men exists...but not in the United States.

No. You may have meant effective, oppressive sexism, but not sexism per se. There's plenty of sexism directed at men.

"If men knew what women said about them in private, the human race would cease to exist." -- W. H. Auden

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#64

Post by naradaellis » Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 1:47 AM UTC

lutusp wrote: post #63

mlent wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexism is an institution, so to speak. A single individual could not "bring sexism into existence". Women do not have enough power, as it stands, to impose a systemic oppression of men. Perhaps in the future, or in some female dominated societies, sexism against men exists...but not in the United States.

> Women do not have enough power, as it stands, to impose a systemic oppression of men. And men don't have enough power to impose a systemic oppression of women -- for that, they need women to cooperate in their own oppression. Women voluntarily rise to the challenge. > Perhaps in the future, or in some female dominated societies, sexism against men exists...but not in the United States. No. You may have meant effect…

I don't think I can buy the victim-blaming argument. Is a woman who is born into a culture with female genital mutilation, or forced arranged marriage "cooperating in their own oppression"? Both of these acts can occur at young ages.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#65

Post by mlent » Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 1:48 AM UTC

lutusp wrote: post #63

mlent wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexism is an institution, so to speak. A single individual could not "bring sexism into existence". Women do not have enough power, as it stands, to impose a systemic oppression of men. Perhaps in the future, or in some female dominated societies, sexism against men exists...but not in the United States.

> Women do not have enough power, as it stands, to impose a systemic oppression of men. And men don't have enough power to impose a systemic oppression of women -- for that, they need women to cooperate in their own oppression. Women voluntarily rise to the challenge. > Perhaps in the future, or in some female dominated societies, sexism against men exists...but not in the United States. No. You may have meant effect…

I totally agree with you. Many women participate in the oppression of other women. White women have historically done this to women of color, but it can happen within the same race/class/etc.

Isn't sexism, by its nature, oppression? So what is sexism without oppression? I choose to call that discrimination or prejudice based on gender. You can call it "sexism minus x/y/z." I think the difference is that I see those other components as necessary for something or someone to be sexist, and you do not.

Frankly, I disagree with the wikipedia article and definition. As I've said -- these are controversial topics, something like the dictionary or wikipedia can't just be taken as sources of definitive truth in my opinion.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#66

Post by izak30 » Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 1:58 AM UTC

freework wrote: post #57

thejosh wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We are immigrants and we are not white, I believe those adds to our problems. Usually, sadly, this is because initially you don't have a formal education (university or otherwise)...

Self taught programmers are more discriminated against these days than women, in my opinion. A lot of companies _say_ they don't care if you don't have a degree, but my experience is that the programmer with a degree from Stanford but a blank github account will get the job over a self-taught developer with dozens of shipped projects under their belt.

That is the exact opposite of my experience.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#67

Post by noahl » Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 2:16 AM UTC

memset wrote: post #45

This is really neat! Kudos to github. Here is a question: as one of two engineers at a 6-person seed-round startup, what could we be doing to contribute to the ecosystem of people who support women in technology? We don't have the office space - much less the money - to find or sponsor a monthly talk. So within the context of running our business, what can we do? Sometimes I fear that, until we have a successful and…

I'm not as familiar with this problem as I'd like to be, so please take this with a grain of salt, but maybe you could invite female CS majors from nearby universities to come see your offices? Or better yet, to see what it's like to work with you for a day.

After all, one of the major issues seems to be that women don't see role models working in tech companies. If you have female students come and work with you, then they should be able to imagine themselves working at your company, or another small startup.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#68

Post by mlent » Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 2:16 AM UTC

naradaellis wrote: post #64

lutusp wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women do not have enough power, as it stands, to impose a systemic oppression of men. And men don't have enough power to impose a systemic oppression of women -- for that, they need women to cooperate in their own oppression. Women voluntarily rise to the challenge. > Perhaps in the future, or in some female dominated societies, sexism against men exists...but not in the United States. No. You may have meant effect…

I don't think I can buy the victim-blaming argument. Is a woman who is born into a culture with female genital mutilation, or forced arranged marriage "cooperating in their own oppression"? Both of these acts can occur at young ages.

When female genital mutilation occurs, which is largely a problem in non-Western countries [or at least is perceived to be a non-Western problem, I'm not informed enough to say], white feminists historically attributed that to those people being 'uncivilized', which is obviously racist and white supremacist, rather than it being a result of those women experiencing a different manifestation of oppression in a male-dominated society.

So yeah, that's one way women can contribute to their own oppression. Obviously most forms of women's oppression are not the result of that woman "doing it to herself," but I can definitely see how that line of argumentation can be a slippery slope of victim-blaming.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#69

Post by lsc » Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 2:23 AM UTC

freework wrote: post #57

thejosh wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We are immigrants and we are not white, I believe those adds to our problems. Usually, sadly, this is because initially you don't have a formal education (university or otherwise)...

Self taught programmers are more discriminated against these days than women, in my opinion. A lot of companies _say_ they don't care if you don't have a degree, but my experience is that the programmer with a degree from Stanford but a blank github account will get the job over a self-taught developer with dozens of shipped projects under their belt.

hm. as a self-taught sysadmin, this hasn't been my experience.

I mean, a degree from Stanford is something that is worth a whole hell of a lot more than your average degree... so yeah, maybe someone from Stanford would have a significant advantage over someone self-taught... but someone from an average university? maybe some advantage, but yeah, I don't think it's as big of a deal as being a woman, or being foreign or what have you.

Of course, if you are self taught and have no experience? sure, you have it really rough. Much more so than a person who has a degree and no experience. You need the experience. but after ten years? (remember, you should have /at least/ 4 years more experience than the kid with the degree, if you are self-taught.) From what I've seen? I can be pretty competitive.

But women? Nobody has ever rejected /me/ from a job with:

"I'm sorry, but we don't have any diversity positions at this time."

The mind reels. I have had a job, before, when I was much younger, where I thought I was hired for altruistic reasons. It was soul-crushing. Imagine that rattling around the back of your head for the rest of your career.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#70

Post by slurgfest » Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 3:01 AM UTC

izak30 wrote: post #66

freework wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self taught programmers are more discriminated against these days than women, in my opinion. A lot of companies _say_ they don't care if you don't have a degree, but my experience is that the programmer with a degree from Stanford but a blank github account will get the job over a self-taught developer with dozens of shipped projects under their belt.

That is the exact opposite of my experience.

I have never had the slightest indication that anyone actually looked at my Github account listed at the top of the resume, let alone that this ever helped me get any job I've had. So I'm inclined to treat this as an urban legend.