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New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

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Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#61

Post by ethbr1 »

moffkalast wrote: post #31
embedding-shape wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately regulations often don't go far enough. Eh, what are you proposing? That these new regulations should cover +10 year old devices too? Similarly I still have an iPhone with a lightning port instead of the legally mandated USB-C port, but at no point was I expecting Apple to somehow change the ports of existing devices.

Arguably compute performance has changed very little in the past five years and we're way into diminishing returns for silicon, so yes it makes perfect sense for devices to last more than a decade and remain perfectly capable machines now as long as they're not kneecapped by lack of support combined with a locked ecosystem. Manufacturers either need to keep it updated or they need to make it possible for others to do…

And with the memory crunch, it's likely that we passed peak memory in consumer devices, at least for a bit.

So for next decade, older devices might often have more memory!

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#62

Post by lnsru »

birdsongs wrote: post #35
lnsru wrote: post #24

Good luck to hardware startups in Europe! For every developer now a company needs one technical writer or compliance specialist. That basically means that all small everyday electronics products will come from overseas. Either because it’s cheaper or it’s cheaper and nobody cares about certification.

This is so disingenuous. I've been part of two Norwegian hard tech startups in the past few years (one as a founder, one currently as an embedded lead) and all it took was our mech engineer (which you will always need) making an accessible case design and publishing a short two page PDF on disassembly. Down the road, if we make it, we will have access to funds for a few roles that maintain spare parts and a repair (m…

How good is your employer prepared for Cyber Resilience Act?

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#63

Post by ethbr1 »

vv_ wrote: post #59
arlcode wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would open up a tertiary market for smaller companies to do that (maybe even sell into a different market). Not every business venue needs to be a multi billion multi national and using some devices for a long time is better than burrying them all in a land fill.

I'm sorry, instead of: > it wouldn't provide much value to the vast majority of customers I should have phrased it as: > it wouldn't provide enough value to their customers to create meaningful value for the company. You can argue that "ha ha, we shall enact regulation to force them to do this!" but the reality is that only a small percentage of customers would actually benefit from such regulation. Because most peop…

Imho, the problem the EU is trying to solve isn't necessarily utility to the original buyer.

It's the large stream of perfectly usable e-waste modern practices emit.

Anything that makes a significant portion of that stream reusable by anyone is a win.

If that's someone buying e-waste, unlocking devices, flashing linux, and then reselling it to whomever then that's still a win.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#64

Post by braiamp »

Yet another baffling comment section, but in this case the excuse doesn't work [0].

In a forum full of "tech guys" that like "tech solutions" the number of comments that are against being allowed to thinker and repair their own devices is above zero.... we really need to drown out those voices, they represent a very shameful set of individuals that taint what (I would like to think) we like and prefer

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49395714

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#65

Post by terhechte »

vrganj wrote: post #44
troupo wrote: post #2

> including a repair obligation for manufacturers of certain products Unfortunately regulations often don't go far enough. I have a ~10 year old iPad Pro in perfect working condition. I can basically do nothing with it, and increasingly it can no longer even browse the internet because Safari is so outdated on it. So it will be waste. See similar story about Amazon bricking old Kindles: https://www.techradar.com/tabl…

Try out Reynard, which ships up-to-date Gecko instead of relying on outdated system WebKit! https://github.com/minh-ton/reynard-browser Might help you get some more use out of it, thanks to the DMA :-)

I tried to install this the other day with Altstore and gave up after 30min. I learned there are two altstores, and the one I could install didn't support the "source" listed on that repository. Then I looked into the other options and all required some terminal messing and rooting and what not. I thought in the EU we should be able to just install software now.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#66

Post by xxs »

vv_ wrote: post #47
xxs wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intellectual property is not some god given right unlike air and water. There is little need not to support a decade old hardware and effectively turning the said hardware to a door stop, or a landfill. Btw, it's difficult to believe the post is a good faith argument.

> There is little need not to support a decade old hardware > it's difficult to believe the post is a good faith argument. Right back at you, I guess. I would understand the frustration if manufacturers were not upfront about how long they intend to support their hardware, although that is not always easy to predict. However, demanding that they support hardware indefinitely is unreasonable.

>demanding that they support hardware indefinitely is unreasonable.

nobody demands that - it's more of the fact the hardware is locked and serialized, e.g. it won't accept a blue tooth module unless it's unlocked with proprietary software.

The hardware manufacturers spend quite the effort, so the devices are not open and require designated tools for minor fixes. I can imagine it not wanting to perform a warranty repair but that's the end of it.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#67

Post by j16sdiz »

tpxl wrote: post #46
expedition32 wrote: post #36

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

The manufacturer/seller already employs people who deal with this, and it's not expensive. Getting my washing machine fixed for 10€ parts + labor instead of 300€ parts + labor sounds mighty nice to me. > Manufacturers must also provide [...] access to spare parts at a reasonable price. This is the important part. Stupid shit like 0.3€ soldering buttons to 200€ motherboards so the repair is expensive has got to go.

> Stupid shit like 0.3€ soldering buttons to 200€ motherboards

I won't call soldering anything on a 20-layers pcb "stupid shit".

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#68

Post by thrance »

lnsru wrote: post #24

Good luck to hardware startups in Europe! For every developer now a company needs one technical writer or compliance specialist. That basically means that all small everyday electronics products will come from overseas. Either because it’s cheaper or it’s cheaper and nobody cares about certification.

Always the same weak anti-regulation argument: "if companies can't screw over their consumers, how can they ever turn a profit??". And guess what, this law also applies to foreign companies selling in the EU.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#70

Post by flohofwoe »

vv_ wrote: post #17
realusername wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally, most companies simply do not want to make their intellectual property publicly available. You can just stop to the last reason, they don't want to give up ownership back to you. They would prefer you to throw the device in the bin and buy a new one, preferably from them again.

> they don't want to give up ownership back to you No, it's simply that your demand is completely unreasonable. You are essentially asking them to adopt an open-source model. That can mean giving up control over its intellectual property and potentially exposing proprietary technology to competitors, especially when some products are valuable precisely because of the software that runs on them. Edit: I don't know why…

> I don't know why it is not allowing me to reply to you.

There's a 10 minute timer on HN to avoid discussions becoming too heated (at least AFAIK that's the reason).

> You are essentially asking them to adopt an open-source model. That can mean giving up control over its intellectual property and potentially exposing proprietary technology to competitors, especially when some products are valuable precisely because of the software that runs on them.

...and nothing wrong with that. The right-to-repair is mainly aimed at discontinued products anyway, at that point the "IP" is so old it doesn't require protection (and to be honest, the whole concept of long term "intellectual property" is bullshit anyway, just as long-term "copyright" - about 3 to 5 years is a reasonable time frame for 'exploiting' a novel idea, after that it should be free for all - at that time your competitors will have figured it out anyway).

In the 80s it was entirely normal to get parts lists, schematics and ROM listings when buying a computer for instance (and I guess other electronic devices too), there is absolutely no reason why access to the same information should be restricted today.

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