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ECHR confirms ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief

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Re: ECHR confirms ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief

#61

Post by customguy »

Leonard_of_Q wrote: post #38
mold_aid wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, people in the US definitely have trouble with virtue.

You forgot 'signalling' which is what people in the West - not just the USA - are tired of. I know I am tired of it and I'm neither an American nor in the USA. Stating that a whole country has problems with virtue is rather stigmatising and something you'd complain about if it were about any country in what some have taken to call the "global South".

> You forgot 'signalling' which is what people in the West - not just the USA - are tired of.

No, that's implicit. If I'm tired of rock music, that mostly comes into play when I'm exposed to it in some way.

> Stating that a whole country has problems with virtue is rather stigmatising

Speaking of, someone expressing their virtue -- and caring for the well being of sentient beings simply is, it's a capacity, and it annoys the people who lack it, because it raises the question why they lack it -- isn't automatically them "signalling" anything. That's just an attempt to stigmatise it.

recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48922972

If we don't have empathy with victims of that, who cares what we are "tired of"? We can torture animals, but don't stigmatise us, and don't talk about how you try to avoid feeding the systems that lead to animals being tortured. You can talk about how much you like your other new hobbies, but not this one. You cannot even wear a pin. Because we're so tired and you're so oppressive, with your virtue and your signals. Have empathy with my fear of empathy, basically.

I'm not even vegetarian but I'm more tired of that than them, because it's both evil and stupid, and projects that on vegans.

> something you'd complain about if it were about any country in what some have taken to call the "global South".

Many things play into this. One is the hesitation to punch down versus a superpower that spent many, many millions to signal, to broadcast, their virtue into the whole world for decades.

Re: ECHR confirms ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief

#62

Post by userbinator »

InsideOutSanta wrote: post #30
userbinator wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have gotten sick of the constant virtue-signaling.

I think you've pinpointed the reason, although unintentionally: the US is so focused on culture wars that people can't visibly follow a vegan diet without being attacked for it.

[flagged]

Re: ECHR confirms ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief

#63

Post by userbinator »

customguy wrote: post #61
Leonard_of_Q wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot 'signalling' which is what people in the West - not just the USA - are tired of. I know I am tired of it and I'm neither an American nor in the USA. Stating that a whole country has problems with virtue is rather stigmatising and something you'd complain about if it were about any country in what some have taken to call the "global South".

> You forgot 'signalling' which is what people in the West - not just the USA - are tired of. No, that's implicit. If I'm tired of rock music, that mostly comes into play when I'm exposed to it in some way. > Stating that a whole country has problems with virtue is rather stigmatising Speaking of, someone expressing their virtue -- and caring for the well being of sentient beings simply is, it's a capacity, and it an…

[flagged]

Re: ECHR confirms ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief

#64

Post by customguy »

userbinator wrote: post #63
customguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You forgot 'signalling' which is what people in the West - not just the USA - are tired of. No, that's implicit. If I'm tired of rock music, that mostly comes into play when I'm exposed to it in some way. > Stating that a whole country has problems with virtue is rather stigmatising Speaking of, someone expressing their virtue -- and caring for the well being of sentient beings simply is, it's a capacity, and it an…

[flagged]

> > If we don't have empathy with victims of that

> Classic suicidal empathy.

What is? You didn't even quote a full sentence, you're basically just freaking out over the word empathy.

And interestingly, what you failed to even try to parse says the opposite. I do NOT have empathy with those who don't have empathy with others. I'm not "crying", you kinda are.

Re: ECHR confirms ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief

#65

Post by readthenotes1 »

constantius wrote: post #55
aziaziazi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the definition from the guys behind the word "veganism": > Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it…

That quote seems to be reinforcing my point but your excerpts indicate you disagree, so I'm.not sure why you posted this: I will assume you're disagreeing, sorry if I misunderstood. The adaptations in that quote are about the animals who will be harmed without your intending to do so during your own attempts to survive, like the insects killed during harvest. The essence and the last sentence of the definition are al…

The vegan who ignores the last sentence and the definition "In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals"

It's kind of like the Christian who ignores the conversation in the gospel of John:

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

Re: ECHR confirms ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief

#66

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

constantius wrote: post #49
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's by definition not vegan to consume animal products Definitions can change, especially when it comes to personal beliefs of what is right and wrong. Christianity, for example, has split countless versions as people redefine what it means to them. Yet they all still call themselves Christians.

I seriously feel like I'm being DDoS'd, because this position is so absurd and has so many counters to it (can you really not realise this?) that I don't know where to start. The definition of veganism includes more than just not eating animal products, but that aspect of it leaves no place to ambiguity. What's the appeal of including vegetarians and carnists into veganism? It's not like vegans wield political power…

I've heard that one of the core tenants of veganism is about not being cruel to animals. In the case of raising your own chickens where you have full knowledge of how well they are cared for and no cruelty is involved, what's the philosophical harm of eating their eggs. In the case, this core tenant of veganism is maintained.

Re: ECHR confirms ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief

#67

Post by spwa4 »

thrance wrote: post #44
Gathering6678 wrote: post #28

(1) An inmate is not allowed (essentially, by the society) a specific diet dictated by his/her belief; and, (2) A poor person cannot afford (essentially, because of the society) a nutritious and delicious meal dictated by his/her needs or wants. What are the differences between them? Are there differences at all?

(1) is a negative liberty: freedom from being forced to eat a certain diet. (2) is a positive liberty: actual ability to eat a certain diet. Western society is still mostly blind to the latter type of liberty. Similarly, everyone is free to own a home, but ensuring everyone has the means to actually do so is just not something politicians will even talk about, and is often labelled as "communist" or some other kind o…

Well of course. If you want to know what a "right" is, legally, you need to reverse it.

For diet it is quite reasonable: a duty for certain products to be available for purchase (it does make clear that this right does not exist. A few vendors go out of business and your right to eat vegan goes with them)

For owning a home, this would be a duty for everyone else to build you a home, satisfying your requirements. One thing everyone agrees on is that other people do NOT have the right to force you to work. But that is the only way governments would be able to guarantee a right like this.

And, of course, one of the rights people demanded is the right to not participate in any right or duty that goes against your beliefs ... it is, of course, totally impossible to have this right and either of the other ones in society, or your rights would become very brittle indeed.

Re: ECHR confirms ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief

#68

Post by cindyllm »

spwa4 wrote: post #67
thrance wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(1) is a negative liberty: freedom from being forced to eat a certain diet. (2) is a positive liberty: actual ability to eat a certain diet. Western society is still mostly blind to the latter type of liberty. Similarly, everyone is free to own a home, but ensuring everyone has the means to actually do so is just not something politicians will even talk about, and is often labelled as "communist" or some other kind o…

Well of course. If you want to know what a "right" is, legally, you need to reverse it. For diet it is quite reasonable: a duty for certain products to be available for purchase (it does make clear that this right does not exist. A few vendors go out of business and your right to eat vegan goes with them) For owning a home, this would be a duty for everyone else to build you a home, satisfying your requirements. One…

[dead]

Re: ECHR confirms ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief

#69

Post by moi2388 »

InsideOutSanta wrote: post #59
moi2388 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

"They could have just not eaten it" and "they eat what they’re given" are literally opposites of each other. So you don't have an actual point; you're just being an asshat. Why don't you do that by yourself instead of involving other people in your personal misery?

I do have an actual point, you for whatever reason just don’t agree with it.

My point is that people in prison gave up their freedom when they committed crimes. They should not be rewarded by giving them dietary choices. It’s a prison, a punishment, not a hotel.

Re: ECHR confirms ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief

#70

Post by dleink »

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #17
xvxvx wrote: post #2

I spent 2 weeks in the UK recently and they are light years ahead of the US in terms of veganism and cruelty free products. I was actually quite shocked about how many options the grocery stores had and how almost every restaurant had a vegan option, or even a vegan menu. The trend in the US has been to hide the word ‘vegan’ from consumers and bury it in their website somewhere. Not so in the UK. Brands seem super ha…

I was kind of surprised when I traveled to NY and SF from Melbourne. I knew Melbourne was fairly up there in vego/vegan friendliness, but took it for granted that NY and SF would be a cakewalk. Hardly appalling, but there were times I could not eat anything on the menu at some places and I'm only vegetarian, and in many instances I had only a single option. Was a little strange.

The trends in NYC are kinda pro-meat but if you're a day-to-day vegetarian or looking for it, there's plenty. I can definitely see showing up at a NY restaurant and everything on the menu having beef tallow in it somehow.
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