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Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

frank.computer

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Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#61

Post by pj_mukh »

michaelt wrote: post #45

As I understand it, in America "it's just a tool" is shorthand for "guns should be regulated like hammers, i.e. barely at all, responsibility lies with the user not those who make, market and sell it" Needless to say a lot of people disagree with that, because of the shootings. And internationally, a lot of societies regulate guns a great deal. I'm not saying this to steer the conversation towards gun control, or to…

You’re not doing this but to your example: Guns don’t have numerous other positive use cases, so AI is simply not a fair comparison.

And in the case of AI, given the media environment the fact that it’s being used to save millions of hours doing back office automation is never covered.

So yes this is a prime argument for AI. It’s just a tool with a myriad of uses that no one covers cuz they’re boring.

As to the rest of the authors argument, obviously I’m aware of its myriad negative consequences but just disagree that banning matrix math or NIMBY-ying warehouses where matrix math happens is somehow a solution to those problems.

You want to talk about policy fixes at the level of applications, I’m all ears.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#62

Post by apparent »

pj_mukh wrote: post #61
michaelt wrote: post #45

As I understand it, in America "it's just a tool" is shorthand for "guns should be regulated like hammers, i.e. barely at all, responsibility lies with the user not those who make, market and sell it" Needless to say a lot of people disagree with that, because of the shootings. And internationally, a lot of societies regulate guns a great deal. I'm not saying this to steer the conversation towards gun control, or to…

You’re not doing this but to your example: Guns don’t have numerous other positive use cases, so AI is simply not a fair comparison. And in the case of AI, given the media environment the fact that it’s being used to save millions of hours doing back office automation is never covered. So yes this is a prime argument for AI. It’s just a tool with a myriad of uses that no one covers cuz they’re boring. As to the rest…

> Guns don’t have numerous other positive use cases, so AI is simply not a fair comparison.

They may not have numerous positive use cases, but the one where they save your life is a pretty good one. People who live where police are nearby don't appreciate how different things are out in the country.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#63

Post by account42 »

kykat wrote: post #26

I've read "amusing ourselves to death" and there the author also criticises the idea that new technologies are "just tools". The invention of the telegraph changed how information is traded and the contents of newspapers, the invention of the TV changed politics, and so on. The medium shapes the message and induces behaviours from us. We never thought about wanting to promt chatgpt, or watch people doing sports on a…

The difference is that TVs and other past inventions weren't pushed on everyone at all cost. You could and still can live a mostly TV-free live. Workplaces aren't making you watch TV while you work. There is no one insinuation that you'll be obsolete if you don't embrace TVs. Your existing appliances didn't suddenly sprout a TV screen. Instead, people bought TVs because they saw value in them, at a time of their choosing.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#64

Post by BlackFly »

chacham15 wrote: post #21

"AI is just a tool" is meant as a counterpoint to AI producing slop [1]. It isnt that there aren't ethical/societal implications with it as with everything we do in society. [1] If you take the slop and manually fix/improve/verify it to production value it can be immensely valuable.

This is also how I have seen this particular thought terminating cliche used. The problem with the framing is that on the one side you have someone complaining about unrestrained slop and then this thought terminating cliche is offered. Why yes, it matters how you use it and the complaint is that users are not refining the output enough before presenting it to others.

The thought terminating issue with the phrase is that it isn't just a tool. Once you automate its use (automated PR reviews, ticket fixups, etc.), it becomes a process as well. You are almost certainly purchasing it as a service and not as a tool. It also contains elements of randomness that most tools do not. These quibbling points are what triggers the cognitive dissonance to produce the thought terminating effect. It is quibbling so you cannot really argue that point but the point is irrelevant; the second part of the cliche seems to be agreeing with the complaint about slop and yet the sentence is offered as some counterpoint. This termination prevents the actual conversation about how valuable its use is when the quality standard is not lowered.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#65

Post by throwawayffffas »

> And AI is not new, in this regard. The flattening of all pains into a total loss of pain has previously been the job of recreational drug use or theology

Son, my dishwasher is not a religion, although I may declare holy war upon you if you try to take it from me.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#66

Post by pj_mukh »

apparent wrote: post #62
pj_mukh wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not doing this but to your example: Guns don’t have numerous other positive use cases, so AI is simply not a fair comparison. And in the case of AI, given the media environment the fact that it’s being used to save millions of hours doing back office automation is never covered. So yes this is a prime argument for AI. It’s just a tool with a myriad of uses that no one covers cuz they’re boring. As to the rest…

> Guns don’t have numerous other positive use cases, so AI is simply not a fair comparison. They may not have numerous positive use cases, but the one where they save your life is a pretty good one. People who live where police are nearby don't appreciate how different things are out in the country.

Digression, but gun laws (or lack thereof) apply equally to cities where most people live and where guns wreck most of their havoc and cities are banned from passing any laws to help fix. Different issue entirely.

In fact this kind of case-by-case handling is exactly what I’m asking for in AI as opposed to blanket laws.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#67

Post by laszlojamf »

I like the gym analogy. It's like how farmers used to be fit because farming involved a lot of manual labor. Then the tractor came and a lot of the physical work became optional and farmers got fat. Now we're all using fork lifts in the mental gym and thinking how strong we are.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#68

Post by kykat »

account42 wrote: post #63
kykat wrote: post #26

I've read "amusing ourselves to death" and there the author also criticises the idea that new technologies are "just tools". The invention of the telegraph changed how information is traded and the contents of newspapers, the invention of the TV changed politics, and so on. The medium shapes the message and induces behaviours from us. We never thought about wanting to promt chatgpt, or watch people doing sports on a…

The difference is that TVs and other past inventions weren't pushed on everyone at all cost. You could and still can live a mostly TV-free live. Workplaces aren't making you watch TV while you work. There is no one insinuation that you'll be obsolete if you don't embrace TVs. Your existing appliances didn't suddenly sprout a TV screen. Instead, people bought TVs because they saw value in them, at a time of their choo…

Even if you never watched TV your whole life, you still can't escape the consequences of other people watching TV.

That's the thing to keep in mind, it's not something an individual can "fix".

That's why policies and laws are so important.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#69

Post by Planktonne »

michaelt wrote: post #45

As I understand it, in America "it's just a tool" is shorthand for "guns should be regulated like hammers, i.e. barely at all, responsibility lies with the user not those who make, market and sell it" Needless to say a lot of people disagree with that, because of the shootings. And internationally, a lot of societies regulate guns a great deal. I'm not saying this to steer the conversation towards gun control, or to…

I think another important parallel between guns and AI is that the people who say "it's just a tool" are discounting all the cultural context. Additionally and anecdotally, they tend to be the people who are most connected to that cultural element.

A gun is just a tool except it's also a symbol of countless things within American culture: freedom and independence and even masculinity sometimes. It's bound up with various cultural tropes and narratives that mean it's only a tool in the same way that Mjǫllnir is only a hammer.

Similarly, we have literally centuries of cultural context to the idea of thinking machines, and it is a tool, but a lot of the people saying that also think it's their girlfriend or god or just something that will entirely upturn society and remove [entire class of people].

"It's just a tool" is accurate but disingenuous, knowingly or not. There's a lot more bound up in a gun or AI than there is in a can opener.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#70

Post by [deleted] »

pj_mukh wrote: post #61
michaelt wrote: post #45

As I understand it, in America "it's just a tool" is shorthand for "guns should be regulated like hammers, i.e. barely at all, responsibility lies with the user not those who make, market and sell it" Needless to say a lot of people disagree with that, because of the shootings. And internationally, a lot of societies regulate guns a great deal. I'm not saying this to steer the conversation towards gun control, or to…

You’re not doing this but to your example: Guns don’t have numerous other positive use cases, so AI is simply not a fair comparison. And in the case of AI, given the media environment the fact that it’s being used to save millions of hours doing back office automation is never covered. So yes this is a prime argument for AI. It’s just a tool with a myriad of uses that no one covers cuz they’re boring. As to the rest…

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