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Dupes took over the world

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Re: Dupes took over the world

#61

Post by jrochkind1 »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #17
brudgers wrote: post #3

Fender makes dupes of its iconic instruments. If someone said, making dupes of Fender guitars is Fender's core business, I wouldn't argue.

There's an ongoing lawsuit with another guitar maker who essentially is claimng something like the fender guitar body is basically independently / evolutionarily the only good body style and that there's a convergence and so it's like trying to patent the shape of a saxophone or violin

It's interesting you used both saxophone and violin as your examples, as they are very different historically.

Violins are basically ancient and evolved gradually over huge time spans, yes.

But saxophones -- invented by a guy named Adolph Sax and patented in France in 1846! It really was a kind of new thing, combining aspects of brass and woodwind instruments in ways that hadn't been done before. I think it's fair to say he invented it as a new instrument. (What legal protection that should get how is another story, I don't know that I like patents honestly). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxophone

Sax was really mad about manufacturers reverse engineering and copying his saxophone without a license and tried suing them etc, for the period before his patent expired, but it was still being copied a lot -- it was a new thing people were excited about. Once the patent expired, it was definitely a free for all.

Re: Dupes took over the world

#62

Post by Arainach »

zkmon wrote: post #59

"Dupe" might need to be more specific. What is copied? Is it design, brand name, quality, parts or functionality? What is not to be copied? and why? Dupe might affect the seller, but customer doesn't care much. In the past, people had to go by brand name as an assurance of quality. We have other means now. Reviews from other buyers, detailed specifications, return policies - all reduced the moat of branding. People c…

We have nothing of the sort. Reviews are bought and manipulated at scale. Dupe brands come and go month to month. Very few of the electronics I've bought on Amazon in the last 8 years are still for sale, but for most of them there are current listings with the same pictures and a "different" brand name.

Most reviews that aren't fake are useless and written within the first few days of ownership anyway .

Re: Dupes took over the world

#63

Post by marcus_holmes »

t0mpr1c3 wrote: post #48
bcraven wrote: post #2

With decreasing quality of branded products, there's less to distinguish them from dupes. https://ledger.worseonpurpose.com/

Solvair now make the real Dr Martens (in the UK)! The high street brand that owns the name makes all theirs in the far East. Check out Solvair if you can find them, they are better quality.

This is like a reverse-dupe situation. The people who actually made the boots (NPS, a co-op in the UK) never owned the brand [0]. Then in 2013, the brand was acquired by a PE company [1] who did what PE companies do and got cheap, nasty, versions of the boot made in East Asia.

So the "dupe" non-branded version is actually the original, and much, much better quality than the branded official version of the product.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solovair [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Martens

Re: Dupes took over the world

#64

Post by marcus_holmes »

zkmon wrote: post #59

"Dupe" might need to be more specific. What is copied? Is it design, brand name, quality, parts or functionality? What is not to be copied? and why? Dupe might affect the seller, but customer doesn't care much. In the past, people had to go by brand name as an assurance of quality. We have other means now. Reviews from other buyers, detailed specifications, return policies - all reduced the moat of branding. People c…

> In the past, people had to go by brand name as an assurance of quality. We have other means now.

Yeah, brand reputation doesn't work as a guide to quality any more.

But I don't think we have any other means of reliably identifying quality yet.

Re: Dupes took over the world

#65

Post by Dylan16807 »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #61
calvinmorrison wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an ongoing lawsuit with another guitar maker who essentially is claimng something like the fender guitar body is basically independently / evolutionarily the only good body style and that there's a convergence and so it's like trying to patent the shape of a saxophone or violin

It's interesting you used both saxophone and violin as your examples, as they are very different historically. Violins are basically ancient and evolved gradually over huge time spans, yes. But saxophones -- invented by a guy named Adolph Sax and patented in France in 1846! It really was a kind of new thing, combining aspects of brass and woodwind instruments in ways that hadn't been done before. I think it's fair to…

Either way if it's functional then at most you get 20 years of protection. What's shared in both cases is that you can't trademark the shape.

Re: Dupes took over the world

#66

Post by callmeal »

tennisflyi wrote: post #51
sdevonoes wrote: post #31

I remember buying a Nike Tshirt in the early 2000s: good quality, and still looking decent today. Nowadays most of the Nike/Adidas/etc stuff is very low quality fabric and not necessarily cheap (at least in Western Europe)

It’s not cheaper fabric. It’s “better” - lighter, stronger, recycled

It's cheaper for the manufacturer. Not necessarily for the consumer.

Re: Dupes took over the world

#67

Post by JimsonYang »

zkmon wrote: post #59

"Dupe" might need to be more specific. What is copied? Is it design, brand name, quality, parts or functionality? What is not to be copied? and why? Dupe might affect the seller, but customer doesn't care much. In the past, people had to go by brand name as an assurance of quality. We have other means now. Reviews from other buyers, detailed specifications, return policies - all reduced the moat of branding. People c…

> what is not being copied and why?

Most counterfeits goods skimp on manufacturing quality. Like instead of very detailed stitching with intricate design they might just skip that altogether. For instance one of the easiest ways to identify dupes is if the brand name and design on a bag 'flows' to the other side. Obv counterfeits dont really care because they want to save money

For counterfeit goods that are so high quality 1) they would only show pictures of it, not the real thing and 2) only cost like 1/3 of the brand price.

Aka that $600 bag would still cost $200 if it had identical quality. This is all based on what business owners told me from when I visited counterfeit markets in China

Re: Dupes took over the world

#68

Post by JimsonYang »

JimsonYang wrote: post #67
zkmon wrote: post #59

"Dupe" might need to be more specific. What is copied? Is it design, brand name, quality, parts or functionality? What is not to be copied? and why? Dupe might affect the seller, but customer doesn't care much. In the past, people had to go by brand name as an assurance of quality. We have other means now. Reviews from other buyers, detailed specifications, return policies - all reduced the moat of branding. People c…

> what is not being copied and why? Most counterfeits goods skimp on manufacturing quality. Like instead of very detailed stitching with intricate design they might just skip that altogether. For instance one of the easiest ways to identify dupes is if the brand name and design on a bag 'flows' to the other side. Obv counterfeits dont really care because they want to save money For counterfeit goods that are so high…

Do consumers care? Almost always not. But to say the quality is the same is incorrect

Re: Dupes took over the world

#69

Post by lotsofpulp »

inigyou wrote: post #26
nine_k wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the speed of change though. If a million-strong industry collapses overnight, it can lead to really painful social disturbances. If it winds down in 10 years, the transition can be much more smooth. BTW see also https://www.edge.org/conversation/gin-television-and-cogniti...

This is an intentional policy choice btw. You could just legislate the horseshoe company pays 90% of each displaced blacksmith decreasing by 5% per year.

You should share your crystal ball that tells you the future so you can help leaders accurately predict changes in supply and demand curves so that they can make better policy choices.

Re: Dupes took over the world

#70

Post by maguay »

And then you have Swatch, making cheaper versions of the Omega Speedmaster Moonwatch, as almost a licensed dupe (though since both are owned by the same parent company, it's almost more of an iPhone SE to an iPhone Pro comparison, in a way).
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