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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#61

Post by JumpCrisscross »

ouk wrote: post #14

This initiative is a trap. Essentially, it would allow for the termination of bilateral agreements with Europe. This is what the SVP has been trying to do for decades, and this initiative provides them with a convenient excuse. And it’s particularly ironic because the SVP has always opposed legislation promoting sustainability.

> This initiative is a trap. Essentially, it would allow for the termination of bilateral agreements with Europe

Or their preëmptive re-negotiation.

I’m not sure describing it as a trap is fair. Nobody voting on is confused about what the thresholds require. I’m not thrilled at how close they both are. But the fundamental idea of a maximum sustainable population for an Alpine republic isn’t abhorrent to me.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#62

Post by herbst »

naths88 wrote: post #15
amunozo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's rational in the arbitrary number of 10 millions for no reason at allM

It is completely irrational. But the UDC knows it, pure manipulation of the masses.

It's not completely irrational. It's a fixed placative number yes.

But reality is also we don't produce more food than we already do. More people means more import and it's actually lowering the quality of the available food, making shopping more complicated, etc. And that's just the food quality aspect, what about pensions? Health care? ...

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#63

Post by tonfa »

FabCH wrote: post #23
acivitillo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is rational about this exactly? They share no borders with the countries most immigrants come from, they are moving the problem to Spain, Italy, Greece.

Vast majority of immigrants to Switzerland come from Spain, Italy, Greece and other EU countries…

Germany (16% of recent immigration), followed by France and Italy (12% and 11%).

https://cms.news.admin.ch/fileservice/sdweb-docs-prod-nsbcch...

(page 5)

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#65

Post by herbst »

jl6 wrote: post #17

It would be saner to set a cap that is in some way tied to ecological footprint, food production, energy generation capacity, and other factors that make a country sustainable and sovereign. Trouble is, I expect that would put nearly every country way over.

It is in fact based on stuff like this but hyperboled into a placative number. The "9.142 million initiative" would sell just as good.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#66

Post by JumpCrisscross »

alberto-m wrote: post #59

The strong point of the Swiss political system is that the government is, by (EDIT) convention, made up by all significant parties. No major political force can say “if only we were in power...” because they already are. Also, no party can create disasters and then disappear and leave the consequences to the following election winners to deal with. This referendum is an attempt by the members of SVP/UDC, the right-mo…

Yeah, the marketing for this referendum has been awful. But as a mixed-heritage Swiss-American (continental Indian), I’m also sympathetic to the argument that some geographies and political systems have a natural maximum population they can sustain. (Unsurprisingly, the SVP’s marketing may be the thing that tips me against this.)

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#67

Post by FabCH »

fractallyte wrote: post #9
jrflo wrote: post #3

So this is essentially a way to reduce immigration to the country? And if they get close to the cap they will "need to take measures, particularly in the areas of asylum and family reunification." Would be curious to learn more about why this is being proposed.

It's being proposed in order to maintain quality of life. No one wants to be overcrowded. This is a sane solution: collectively agree on the maximum tolerable population. Then it's down to individual responsibility to obey the norms of one's society. Edit: unless you're Swiss, your opinion is irrelevant. Swiss voters have a right to decide how they want to live. They're not beholden to EU laws; they can make their ow…

Well I _am_ Swiss.

You missed the part where we _voluntarily_ chose to enter into a contract with the EU that does in fact beholden us to EU laws.

We can go back on that contract, but breaking your word is something that people remember for a reason.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#68

Post by soco »

ouk wrote: post #14

This initiative is a trap. Essentially, it would allow for the termination of bilateral agreements with Europe. This is what the SVP has been trying to do for decades, and this initiative provides them with a convenient excuse. And it’s particularly ironic because the SVP has always opposed legislation promoting sustainability.

I must wonder though who could profit from Switzerland leaving Schengen. Okay pass checks are only a little hassle, but visas can become bigger, and judicial cooperation on international crime just drops. And yes, no more cross-border workers either way.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#69

Post by deepspace »

_air wrote: post #29

Switzerland is ranked 67th in country population density. For reference, the United Kingdom is ranked 48th and the United States is ranked 183rd. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...

That is an utterly meaningless statistic. Canada, with four times the population, ranks #233, because most of the country is uninhabited / uninhabitable.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#70

Post by JumpCrisscross »

cynicalsecurity wrote: post #64

Leaving the EU or ending free movement with EU countries leads to a significant increase in immigration from the third world, as Brexit showed.

It really doesn’t have to. Britain being incompetent is sort of its own chapter in governance.
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