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How Fear and Social Pressure Are 'Overarming' the U.S.

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Re: How Fear and Social Pressure Are 'Overarming' the U.S.

#61

Post by kashunstva »

sp527 wrote: post #8

Anecdotally, a lot of politically far left people I know have gone quiet on the firearms issue. It seems like the state of the country has 2A suddenly making more sense to a lot of people.

I’m a progressive voter and my waning interest in gun control is that it’s a political nonstarter. But I’m sure there are fellow progressives that are reasoning in the way you suggest.

In any case, if the majority of the “prevent Federal overreach” 2A crowd truly believed in that principle, then I would have expected thousands of armed citizens in Minnesota repelling the extrajudicial abuses taking place there.

Re: How Fear and Social Pressure Are 'Overarming' the U.S.

#62

Post by rayiner »

kashunstva wrote: post #29

> we find that a socially optimal level of ownership is often greater than zero I suppose one could model this in some way. But as a pacifist, vegan and never owner of firearms, I’m genuinely clueless as to how this could be. Is the social optimality here a function possessing weapons for hunting, which can be a social activity?

In the absence of firearms, the person who has the next most dangerous weapon can easily dominate everyone else. The country where I'm from was disarmed by the British to keep us from fighting them. But armed gangs still terrorize people with knives and machetes and whatnot.

Some fraction of the population in any society is antisocial. A non-zero rate of firearms ownership allows the people who aren't antisocial to suppress those who are antisocial and maintain peace.

Re: How Fear and Social Pressure Are 'Overarming' the U.S.

#63

Post by nathan_compton »

RyJones wrote: post #5
Glyptodon wrote: post #3

Are people who are armed because they enjoy shooting or hunting supposed to exist in this research model or not?

Does it matter? Control of you life is your basic human right. Firearms are the great equalizer.

I'm kind of curious as to how you justify this. I personally think its ok for people to have arms, but I don't personally believe in basic human rights. Where would such things even come from? Rights are just conventions which ought to serve whatever goods you are interested in. Unless you believe in god or some other thing like that, there really is no way to justify rights except relative to some other stated goal.

Re: How Fear and Social Pressure Are 'Overarming' the U.S.

#64

Post by fasterik »

kashunstva wrote: post #29

> we find that a socially optimal level of ownership is often greater than zero I suppose one could model this in some way. But as a pacifist, vegan and never owner of firearms, I’m genuinely clueless as to how this could be. Is the social optimality here a function possessing weapons for hunting, which can be a social activity?

It's interesting that your first guess is hunting, and not self-defense. As a pacifist, do you believe in letting violent people do whatever they want to you without resisting or fighting back?

Re: How Fear and Social Pressure Are 'Overarming' the U.S.

#65

Post by chasd00 »

Rounds fired per gun owner per month would be an interesting statistic. The vast majority of people who buy a gun out of fear go to the range once and then put the gun in the top of the closet never to be seen again. I don't think they contribute anything in the cost/benefit equation to gun ownership for a society.

Re: How Fear and Social Pressure Are 'Overarming' the U.S.

#66

Post by idle_zealot »

sp527 wrote: post #60
idle_zealot wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's it. Armed resistance is not realistic, and is probably actively counterproductive compared even to unarmed but violent resistance to occupation. This is because you're not going to "win" in a military sense, it's a battle for hearts and minds, and optically protestors firing at State forces is really really bad. I've stopped talking about it because it's been relegated to a marginal safety issue.…

Not sure why you seem to think people would need to resist the government rather than, more simply, the relatively small number of billionaires who purchase and pervert it.

I don't know what you're suggesting. How would widespread gun ownership help with the government being subverted by oligarchs? Vigilante justice? Wouldn't change anything for the better. More paranoid billionaires would just start running things from private compounds and transit between in private jets and armored convoys. That's not a far step from what many do now, and would be extremely powerful social pretext for authoritarian crackdown.

Re: How Fear and Social Pressure Are 'Overarming' the U.S.

#67

Post by elpocko »

krapp wrote: post #45
elpocko wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's baffling how almost no one here ever speaks out against it. Everybody just puts up with it even though we all know what a sign of arrogance and incompetence it is to attempt to alter post titles in this clumsy, embarrassingly broken way. Everyone is just silently looking at their feet in second hand embarrassment and doesn't want to speak up. And the funniest thing is: there is an official rule that says not to…

People have. The mods have made it clear they consider it necessary to maintain the quality of conversation and they have no intention of changing it.

The mods are obviously wrong and there should be way more pushback from the users. It's embarrassing.

Re: How Fear and Social Pressure Are 'Overarming' the U.S.

#68

Post by simbosambo »

colechristensen wrote: post #47
alistairSH wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t there a massive body of research that indicates gun ownership is less safe on average that non-ownership? Ie the chance of accidental shooting of family/friends is high enough to offset any benefit (on average across the US)?

There's a problem with statistics for this and many other things. Guns attract idiots, idiots have idiot gun problems, it does not follow that if you get a gun, you'll have the same problems. Similar statistics are easy to fool people with. Doing $expensive_thing is associated with health/wealth/success so if everybody did it everybody would be better off! But in reality there's just a selection bias and whatever the…

[dead]

Re: How Fear and Social Pressure Are 'Overarming' the U.S.

#69

Post by Glyptodon »

datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #16
Glyptodon wrote: post #3

Are people who are armed because they enjoy shooting or hunting supposed to exist in this research model or not?

The non-paranoid sportsman is a shrinking demographic, I fear, mostly due to decades of propaganda within the sportsman culture (magazines, organizations). They still exist within academic and reservationist circles, but the grand majority of gun owners I know in my rural backcountry speak pretty matter-of-factly about racist and anti-social ideas (source: friends, family, and going to bars called things like Rusty’s…

I think with younger shooters there are many people who enjoy 3 gun and other modern match style sort of tactical shooting or cowboy action without obsessively carrying or planning for defensive use. But I don't think these folks overlap with the hunter-type sportsman. And do overlap with the "tacticool" folks. Don't know if that translates to rural though.

Re: How Fear and Social Pressure Are 'Overarming' the U.S.

#70

Post by sp527 »

idle_zealot wrote: post #66
sp527 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you seem to think people would need to resist the government rather than, more simply, the relatively small number of billionaires who purchase and pervert it.

I don't know what you're suggesting. How would widespread gun ownership help with the government being subverted by oligarchs? Vigilante justice? Wouldn't change anything for the better. More paranoid billionaires would just start running things from private compounds and transit between in private jets and armored convoys. That's not a far step from what many do now, and would be extremely powerful social pretext fo…

> Wouldn't change anything for the better.

You need to read more history my friend

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