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Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

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Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#61

Post by echelon_musk »

rendx wrote: post #56
aetherspawn wrote: post #6

Live dissection and experimentation on “alive but drugged” human brains is mental. How do you ensure that you aren’t torturing a brain that can’t see, hear or scream? How are you held accountable?

It's still an open debate whether the seat of consciousness (or even simpler, perception) is the brain. see e.g. Wahbeh, H., Radin, D., Cannard, C., & Delorme, A. (2022). What if consciousness is not an emergent property of the brain? Observational and empirical challenges to materialistic models. Frontiers in psychology, 13, 955594. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.955594 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem…

See also: Hridaya.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#62

Post by smeggysmeg »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #14
abtinf wrote: post #11

I will be removing my organ donor status. This is horrifying.

It looks like the families have to agree to do this, before your brain can be donated: > Bexorg obtains brains in partnership with organizations that procure donated organs for transplantation, and Vrselja says once families understand the company’s process and goals, their response is overwhelmingly positive.

Until we find out otherwise. There have been multiple organ harvesting scandals lately. Informed consent has become a marketing concept, no longer a reality.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#63

Post by dhosek »

gavmor wrote: post #30
acheron wrote: post #5

“We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?” Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7 Ac…

Give credit where credit is due: Descartes, Kant, Putnam, etc.

Meditations on First Philosophy messed me up bad. All of Descartes’ reasoning about the inability to determine whether experience was real made complete sense to me. But when I got to where he started to try to build back reality, I didn’t buy it. I can only believe in reality by willfully forgetting Descartes.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#64

Post by sgc »

harimau777 wrote: post #49
pavel_lishin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we know how to make living brains insensate - that's who we all make it through surgery. Presumably they're doing something similar - or using some other well-understood mechanism - to ensure that's not the case. > The brains are already almost devoid of the coordinated neural firing necessary even for minimal consciousness, says Brendan Parent, a bioethicist at New York University Langone Health and one of six…

My understanding was that we now believe that patients under anesthesia are often "awake" but the drugs prevent them from forming memories so they can't complain once the anesthesia wears off. Is that incorrect?

More like very rarely (1-2 per 1000), very partially aware. I could not find anything saying that it was common, and it appears cases of actual awareness to the point of having pain / trauma are far rarer still. People who have this tend to have foggy memories or other concrete PTSD symptoms after the fact. It does not appear to be the norm.

I still think this experimentation is absolutely insane and I strongly object because there is no way to get feedback from the "patient" after the fact. Since we have no real idea of what is happening, I believe we should err on the side of caution. "But they could consent beforehand" is not morally acceptable for intrinsically inhumane actions that take away fundamental human rights and dignity. So if you think this is possibly inhumane / potentially torture, it is an irrelevant point since true consent would be impossible.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#65

Post by ziml77 »

harimau777 wrote: post #49
pavel_lishin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we know how to make living brains insensate - that's who we all make it through surgery. Presumably they're doing something similar - or using some other well-understood mechanism - to ensure that's not the case. > The brains are already almost devoid of the coordinated neural firing necessary even for minimal consciousness, says Brendan Parent, a bioethicist at New York University Langone Health and one of six…

My understanding was that we now believe that patients under anesthesia are often "awake" but the drugs prevent them from forming memories so they can't complain once the anesthesia wears off. Is that incorrect?

That's how twilight anesthesia works. That's the kind you get when having something like wisdom tooth removal or an endoscopy. They want you to be responsive to instructions but completely relaxed and unable to form memories of the event.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#66

Post by raffael_de »

garethsprice wrote: post #13
aetherspawn wrote: post #6

Live dissection and experimentation on “alive but drugged” human brains is mental. How do you ensure that you aren’t torturing a brain that can’t see, hear or scream? How are you held accountable?

From the article: > The brains are already almost devoid of the coordinated neural firing necessary even for minimal consciousness, says Brendan Parent, a bioethicist at New York University Langone Health and one of six ethicists on Bexorg’s advisory board. But the company also forestalls any electrical activity with the anesthetic propofol, among other measures.

oh, look, seems like we found the guy who can define what consciousness is! and not just that ... he even knows the lower boundary of it, too.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#67

Post by munificent »

harimau777 wrote: post #49
pavel_lishin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we know how to make living brains insensate - that's who we all make it through surgery. Presumably they're doing something similar - or using some other well-understood mechanism - to ensure that's not the case. > The brains are already almost devoid of the coordinated neural firing necessary even for minimal consciousness, says Brendan Parent, a bioethicist at New York University Langone Health and one of six…

My understanding was that we now believe that patients under anesthesia are often "awake" but the drugs prevent them from forming memories so they can't complain once the anesthesia wears off. Is that incorrect?

"Anesthesia" is a wider umbrella term than most people realize with many levels of sedation.

Under "general anesthesia", the patient is completely unconscious. They don't respond to any stimuli. In rare cases, some patients may have an adverse reaction and still retain some sensation, but that's very uncommon. My understanding is that we are certain that patients are actually unconscious (and not just unable to respond) because none of the other involuntary responses to trauma occur during surgery: elevated heart rate, etc. In short, you are simply not there for a while. This is what you get for most kinds of significant surgeries unless the surgery requires you to be awake (like brain surgery where they may need to ask you questions).

"Sedation" or "twilight sedation" is a lower level of anesthesia. You are somewhat conscious and can respond to commands from the doctor. But you are unable to form memories of what's happening and you're usually on something like fentanyl that makes you entirely OK with whatever it is they are doing to you. This is common for procedures like colonoscopies and endoscopies where the procedure is somewhat uncomfortable but where you aren't being cut open.

In general, anesthesiologists are trying to balance the goal of patient comfort against the risks of deeper levels of sedation.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#68

Post by ceejayoz »

dostick wrote: post #47
aetherspawn wrote: post #6

Live dissection and experimentation on “alive but drugged” human brains is mental. How do you ensure that you aren’t torturing a brain that can’t see, hear or scream? How are you held accountable?

Brain does not have physical feelings, and with all other feelings cut off and not possible, even with consciousness it won’t be a horror scenario like in MetallicA’s “One”.

People go crazy in solitary confinement, and they at least have senses left. I’m not sure I’m as confident as you on this one.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#69

Post by raffael_de »

rendx wrote: post #56
aetherspawn wrote: post #6

Live dissection and experimentation on “alive but drugged” human brains is mental. How do you ensure that you aren’t torturing a brain that can’t see, hear or scream? How are you held accountable?

It's still an open debate whether the seat of consciousness (or even simpler, perception) is the brain. see e.g. Wahbeh, H., Radin, D., Cannard, C., & Delorme, A. (2022). What if consciousness is not an emergent property of the brain? Observational and empirical challenges to materialistic models. Frontiers in psychology, 13, 955594. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.955594 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem…

I believe to some extent that everything is conscious and that it's specifically our species' prized mental features that lessen it's level at least temporarily. purely esoterically the statement "a rock is more conscious than a human being" doesn't even seem too outrageous to me.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#70

Post by trklausss »

raffael_de wrote: post #66
garethsprice wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > The brains are already almost devoid of the coordinated neural firing necessary even for minimal consciousness, says Brendan Parent, a bioethicist at New York University Langone Health and one of six ethicists on Bexorg’s advisory board. But the company also forestalls any electrical activity with the anesthetic propofol, among other measures.

oh, look, seems like we found the guy who can define what consciousness is! and not just that ... he even knows the lower boundary of it, too.

I think there is worlds between definitely defining what consciousness is, and what are some of the scenarios and conditions under which consciousness cannot ever happen.

And on top of that, they put a sedative, just in case.

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