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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#61

Post by simion314 »

lp4v4n wrote: post #58

I don't agree with this. Addictive, unless we're talking about a chemical substance or something like that, is a subjective thing. At some point, books, movies, comics, etc, etc might have been considered addictive. Social networks in general should be banned for underage people, that's the thing. And the social network itself should be liable for verifying the age its users, like a nightclub is liable for people who…

>At some point, books, movies, comics, etc, etc might have been considered addictive

The difference compared to a book is that a book is not personalized for each individual reader, so the example is not a good one IMHO.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#62

Post by schnitzelstoat »

conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are?

If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm.

It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#63

Post by seydor »

they are going to put kids on a drip basis. addiction is still there, just limited amount per session. Intermittent rewards is actually the perfect schedule for an advertising company, you don't want people to be making unmonetizable page views.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#64

Post by AndrewKemendo »

stingraycharles wrote: post #33
andybak wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of complex leglislation already exists in many areas of the law: revenue collection being the most obvious one. We could choose to treat "societal harm" the way we treat "tax collection". I'm not saying there aren't infinite edge cases and second-order effects - but we tolerate those already for many things. I'm not pretending this is simple or even desirable - I'm merely stating it's possible if we want to…

Great example. These companies are already experts at circumventing taxes, what makes you think they can’t weasel their way around some arbitrary written law? Just look at the malicious compliance that Apple and Google have around the App Store stuff, they’ll find a way to comply with the law and implement different addictive dark patterns. I’m not saying that I disagree that these companies need to be regulated, I a…

Regulated by who?

There’s no political organization (yes Mamdani actually out-raised cuomo so let that sink in) that isn’t being actively bribed

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#65

Post by Computer0 »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

I made a new YouTube account recently and my homepage was blank.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37053817

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#66

Post by wyre »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

These are multi-billion dollar companies.

Its okay if they have some hard problems to solve.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#67

Post by luke5441 »

conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

This is a bit of systems difference. Under a french law system you would write laws to regulate the harms away. Under english common law liability court cases about the harm would lead to precedents and then to common law derived from it. Though not an expert on this.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#68

Post by AdamN »

biophysboy wrote: post #57
kubb wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is some kind of a meme where people believe things can’t be defined in legal terms and therefore can’t be regulated. These people are usually not lawyers. Does anyone know where it’s coming from? I can certainly believe that incompetent jurisdictions have a ton of issues with people misapplying the law and using loopholes.

Albert Hirschman wrote a great book about the rhetoric people use to stifle policy proposals 35 years ago. “It’s futile; it won’t ever work” is one common argument. It’s not a meme so much as a cynical reflexive intuition

One that's reinforced by those against whichever legislation or regulation is being proposed.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#69

Post by alkonaut »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

In the case of Instagram: You show the videos from the people you follow on instagram, then no more short videos at all. Possibly a search box.

If you search on youtube then it can rank any way it wants, just not use e.g. anything from the viewing history. No "related videos" column. That's what YouTube used to be. But YouTube (unlike TikTok) worked well before it had rabbit holes.

For TikTok the situation is worse. Their whole app just doesn't exist unless you have the custom feeds. This would make YouTube be 2010 youtube, Instagram be 2010 Instagram (great!) but it would effectively be a ban of TikTok's whole functionality (again, great!).

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#70

Post by throwawayffffas »

stingraycharles wrote: post #25
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

"By algorithm" can be easily defined.

The easy benchmark to setup can easily be, that any feed that displays the data in a way other than the following is considered an editorial choice and thus the platform is liable as a publisher:

1. In a chronological order, and only filtered based on user selected options.

2. In any other order explicitly selected by the user.

An exception can be made to allow filtering out content that violates the platforms terms and conditions.

Alternatively there can be no exception, effectively making these platforms unworkable. This is also a choice. We do not need these platforms, including this one.

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