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WFH is becoming a benefit again

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Re: WFH is becoming a benefit again

#61

Post by PeterWhittaker »

This comment , maybe?

I guess, then, that one of the big benefits of my daily is that we don't swing wildly between WFH and RTO with whatever trend/fashion/panic/wind/fart is in the zeitgeist/ether/air/media?

With the exceptions of the occasional client meeting that must be onsite, or the occasional conference, and our monthly team lunches, I've been 100% WFH since mid-2020, not pandemic related (I was mostly WFH for since sometime in 2019 (waves vaguely), and it was changing from consultant to senior wage slave that sealed the deal).

Just like the rest of my team. OK, sure, we're small, and OK, sure, perhaps we use the available communication channels more effectively than others seem to, and OK, sure, while some of us are friends, I don't think any of us make the category error of assuming that coworkers are supposed to double as our social life, but seriously, if people are effective working from home, and we are, then let them.

The world started WFH, we changed nothing. The world started RTO, we changed nothing. The world started complaining about gas prices, well, those of us who own trucks and/or off-road did too, but we changed nothing about how we work.

Triple the price of 1Gbps fibre to the home and we might get a bit more upset.

Re: WFH is becoming a benefit again

#62

Post by gtowey »

gruez wrote: post #47
gtowey wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard a large impetus for the RTO push was to prop up commercial real estate. Permanent WFH would change the value of trillions of dollars of properties and reshape the commercial centers of cities. A lot of people with a lot of money at risk got really scared and decided the easiest thing to do was to go back to the status quo.

>I have heard a large impetus for the RTO push was to prop up commercial real estate. Permanent WFH would change the value of trillions of dollars of properties and reshape the commercial centers of cities. That makes as much sense as "people buy iPhones because they own Apple shares in their 401k (it's #2 in the S&P 500) and want to pump the stock". At an individual CEO level it doesn't make sense, for similar reaso…

Those CEOs don't exist in isolation. There are boards of directors. Most tech companies have additional VC funding. The biggest myth of modern business is that the CEO is the boss. They're not. They're more often the person entrusted to curate the company which is ultimately for the interests of those who own it.

And those people own other things too. Sometimes they own commercial real estate directly. Sometimes they're just investing in it. But they all rub elbows with those who do own it. They sit on boards together. They have common interests and let me tell you -- those interests ain't about what's good for you and me.

Re: WFH is becoming a benefit again

#63

Post by KellyCriterion »

necessary wrote: post #28
KellyCriterion wrote: post #20

Honestly: This WFH shit was the worst for me - Ive lost more than 20kg due to eating not enough at home, I like to go to the office: I can go out and have several lunch options and I dont have to cook for one person and then clean up 20 Min. :-)

Couldn't you also go out to eat from home?

Not that easy: There is actually only one restaurant near me in 5 min walk, everything else is to take bus or subway 10+ min. That exactly is the reason why im sitting in an "inefficiency hole" here - its a very "un-alive" district, unfortunately :-(

Re: WFH is becoming a benefit again

#64

Post by rawgabbit »

alephnerd wrote: post #34
clintmcmahon wrote: post #31

Been working remotely for a long time now and was beginning to feel that loneliness. So, I started going to a co-working space to be around people again. Two/three days a week I'm in the "office" with my new "coworkers". It's been great to get to socialize and talk to other tech folks who are working on interesting and different things. But I also love that freedom of staying home whenever I want to. IMO, more office…

> Two/three days a week... This is the norm now for the past few years, and is one of the few ways to protect your job from being fully offshored. People keep complaining on HN, but the reality is WFH during COVID proved async works, and if async works then there's no reason not to reduce hiring in MTV and NYC and shift to (eg.) Prague, Warsaw, Tel Aviv, Bangalore, etc. The post above as well is predicated on a 1973…

    > People keep complaining on HN, but the reality is WFH during COVID proved async works, and if async works then there's no reason not to reduce hiring in MTV and NYC and shift to (eg.) Prague, Warsaw, Tel Aviv, Bangalore, etc.
Async works because the same people you worked with before, are now on zoom just like when you were in the office. Because when you were in the office, you were on zoom most of the time because there were not enough conference rooms. The WeWork business proposition was correct; it was just implemented/executed poorly. Starbucks and other cafes can make a killing just by offering subscription/reservations based access to conference rooms for the day.

Re: WFH is becoming a benefit again

#65

Post by dakiol »

alephnerd wrote: post #34
clintmcmahon wrote: post #31

Been working remotely for a long time now and was beginning to feel that loneliness. So, I started going to a co-working space to be around people again. Two/three days a week I'm in the "office" with my new "coworkers". It's been great to get to socialize and talk to other tech folks who are working on interesting and different things. But I also love that freedom of staying home whenever I want to. IMO, more office…

> Two/three days a week... This is the norm now for the past few years, and is one of the few ways to protect your job from being fully offshored. People keep complaining on HN, but the reality is WFH during COVID proved async works, and if async works then there's no reason not to reduce hiring in MTV and NYC and shift to (eg.) Prague, Warsaw, Tel Aviv, Bangalore, etc. The post above as well is predicated on a 1973…

> This is the norm now for the past few years, and is one of the few ways to protect your job from being fully offshored.

Not necessarily true. A company that operates 100% remotely in country X not necessarily can hire people from other countries (and let them work there). I work for a french company, 100% remote. The company doesn't have branches in other companies, and so everyone works within France. This is ideal, because the HQ is in Paris, and many people don't (want to) live in Paris. Having to go to the office 2-3 times per week, makes it impossible for my company to hire outside of Paris... which is idiotic

Re: WFH is becoming a benefit again

#66

Post by dakiol »

It's not just about gas pricing, it's also about housing. E.g., why live in Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Milan, if you can live in a cheaper (and way less populated) city? Going back to the office, even if it's 2 days/week completely defets decentralization of housing in most of Europe.

Re: WFH is becoming a benefit again

#67

Post by kkfx »

rawgabbit wrote: post #64
alephnerd wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Two/three days a week... This is the norm now for the past few years, and is one of the few ways to protect your job from being fully offshored. People keep complaining on HN, but the reality is WFH during COVID proved async works, and if async works then there's no reason not to reduce hiring in MTV and NYC and shift to (eg.) Prague, Warsaw, Tel Aviv, Bangalore, etc. The post above as well is predicated on a 1973…

> People keep complaining on HN, but the reality is WFH during COVID proved async works, and if async works then there's no reason not to reduce hiring in MTV and NYC and shift to (eg.) Prague, Warsaw, Tel Aviv, Bangalore, etc. Async works because the same people you worked with before, are now on zoom just like when you were in the office. Because when you were in the office, you were on zoom most of the time becaus…

(WFH since ~11 years), the issue with remote work lay in the many who do not really know how to work in the present time. We're full of people who don't know how to use email even though they use it every day, or a chat app even though they're on it day and night; they can't use a bloody generic website even though they spend most of their lives online, and so on.

These people are simply a problem when working remotely, and while they're certainly present at the bottom of the ladder, they are particularly numerous among management. There are really very few who understand IT well enough not to cause issues and actually be productive.

The handful of people who have a financial interest in keeping the masses enslaved in the city, namely those with financial interests in office spaces, ready made food, fast-tech, fast-fashion, ... prey on this.

This is the real problem. The way out is to teach IT, not CS, not CE, at school, starting from early childhood, and to really teach it: FLOSS desktops, not cloud+mobile is mandatory. And since we don't have enough teachers, the only way is through video lessons, but to do something like that at a national level requires a level of understanding and commitment that currently seems largely absent among most people.

Re: WFH is becoming a benefit again

#68

Post by alephnerd »

dakiol wrote: post #65
alephnerd wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Two/three days a week... This is the norm now for the past few years, and is one of the few ways to protect your job from being fully offshored. People keep complaining on HN, but the reality is WFH during COVID proved async works, and if async works then there's no reason not to reduce hiring in MTV and NYC and shift to (eg.) Prague, Warsaw, Tel Aviv, Bangalore, etc. The post above as well is predicated on a 1973…

> This is the norm now for the past few years, and is one of the few ways to protect your job from being fully offshored. Not necessarily true. A company that operates 100% remotely in country X not necessarily can hire people from other countries (and let them work there). I work for a french company, 100% remote. The company doesn't have branches in other companies, and so everyone works within France. This is idea…

> company that operates 100% remotely in country X not necessarily can hire people from other countries (and let them work there)

Can't speak for French companies aside from some players in DefenseTech and Quantum, but for most American companies this is a solved problem already - we already have a legal entity in most jurisdictions or the ability to spin one up within a couple days.

Additionally, if an organization is spending enough to open a dedicated branch in a country (even if it's only going to house 20-30 people), we tend to get FDI grants and subsidizes unlocked.

Pasqual did something similar when opening up their American campus in Chicago.

> Having to go to the office 2-3 times per week, makes it impossible for my company to hire outside of Paris... which is idiotic

There's no reason to - you aren't getting a significant cost benefit shifting hiring from Paris to (eg.) Toulouse, and are only incurring an additional operational headache.

At that point you may as well open a Francophone development office in Rabat or Tunis, or shift the office to Bucharest or Prague because the CEE countries can outcompete France in ICT hiring subsidies.

Re: WFH is becoming a benefit again

#69

Post by daheza »

gtowey wrote: post #62
gruez wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have heard a large impetus for the RTO push was to prop up commercial real estate. Permanent WFH would change the value of trillions of dollars of properties and reshape the commercial centers of cities. That makes as much sense as "people buy iPhones because they own Apple shares in their 401k (it's #2 in the S&P 500) and want to pump the stock". At an individual CEO level it doesn't make sense, for similar reaso…

Those CEOs don't exist in isolation. There are boards of directors. Most tech companies have additional VC funding. The biggest myth of modern business is that the CEO is the boss. They're not. They're more often the person entrusted to curate the company which is ultimately for the interests of those who own it. And those people own other things too. Sometimes they own commercial real estate directly. Sometimes they…

Yep watch the economic forums if you want to get an insight into how these people think. They will absolutely be excited about AI but be a B2B SaaS that sells by the seat. They will move against their own interests if it in the pursuit of the next quarter regardless of long-term though.

Re: WFH is becoming a benefit again

#70

Post by rawgabbit »

kkfx wrote: post #67
rawgabbit wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People keep complaining on HN, but the reality is WFH during COVID proved async works, and if async works then there's no reason not to reduce hiring in MTV and NYC and shift to (eg.) Prague, Warsaw, Tel Aviv, Bangalore, etc. Async works because the same people you worked with before, are now on zoom just like when you were in the office. Because when you were in the office, you were on zoom most of the time becaus…

(WFH since ~11 years), the issue with remote work lay in the many who do not really know how to work in the present time. We're full of people who don't know how to use email even though they use it every day, or a chat app even though they're on it day and night; they can't use a bloody generic website even though they spend most of their lives online, and so on. These people are simply a problem when working remote…

You're right.

I admit among my coworkers, for a few, I wonder how they manage to work remotely and be productive. These same people are the one who suck up all the oxygen out of meetings; and leave a bad taste in my mouth for the rest of the day.

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