Ok, so if dolphins were given the same rights as humans, what is done when one dolphin kills another dolphin or other offenses[1]?
1) http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2009/05/13/dolphins_are...
Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists
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Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists
#62> It is based on years of research that has shown dolphins and whales have large, complex brains and a human-like level of self-awareness How did they conclude dolphins and whales are self-aware comparatively to humans? That seems like quite a large claim to make and the argument significantly hinges on this. I wasn't aware of any scientific method to prove self awareness.
We'll always have the Matrix problem where it's hard to "prove" self-awareness in others (Descartes does a pretty shitty job), but inasmuch as we have reason to assume other humans have self-awareness, most scientists feel comfortable making the same assumption for animals that pass the mirror test and do well on metacognitive tests where they grade their own mental processes. Examples of the latter include the "pass" test described in the article as well as tests Herbert Terrace conducted in which monkeys were asked to perform various tasks and, each time, bet a number of M&Ms proportional to how confident they were in their solution. Sure enough, they tended to bet a lot on answers they got right and much less on ones they got wrong.
Note that such tests, especially the mirror test, aren't bijective. If you pass the mirror test, we can be reasonably sure you're self-aware. However, if you don't pass the mirror test (which I didn't as a toddler), that doesn't mean you can't be self-aware.
Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
A 10 month old has no responsibilities. Certainly, though, she has rights.
While theorizing tests of animal psyche and self-awareness might be helpful to the purpose, but what we humans forget is the preciseness of agent Smith's evaluation of us: "I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with th…
>There is no chance any animal/fish is going to survive the brunt of us 9 billion in next fifty years.
I won't be so sure considering that unlike a Virus we are aware of the damage we are causing and are already trying to mitigate it.
Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists
#64I'm very comfortable with this in the general case; I feel guilty eating bacon because pigs seem pretty smart. Still, rights always come paired up with responsibilities. Do we then try dolphins for rape or murder? Rather than saying certain categories of animals should have the same rights as humans, maybe we'd be better off saying certain categories of animals deserve a higher level of ethical and legal consideratio…
A 10 month old has no responsibilities. Certainly, though, she has rights.
I always wondered where the assertion of "no rights without responsibilities" came from. Any ideas?
Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists
#65> It is based on years of research that has shown dolphins and whales have large, complex brains and a human-like level of self-awareness How did they conclude dolphins and whales are self-aware comparatively to humans? That seems like quite a large claim to make and the argument significantly hinges on this. I wasn't aware of any scientific method to prove self awareness.
A program a watched a long time ago showed researchers working with dolphins. They would draw something with a marker on the side of the dolphin, and then it would race to an underwater mirror and contort its body to view the mark. The researchers said that this demonstrated self-awareness. As for being compared to humans, meh. I donno.
Since I did not see this program I have to ask; did they reward the dolphin in any way for performing this task?
Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists
#66Philosophically related Podcast [About 15 minutes] on animal abolitionism with Gary Francione at Philosophy Bites.
It contains a well reasoned critique of Peter Singer's approach to animal rights which has become mainstream.
http://philosophybites.com/2012/10/gary-l-francione-on-anima...
Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists
#67We need to be very careful here. There are those (not myself) who would contend that a fetus is a "person", thereby implying that abortion is "murder". I disagree with that, but if we say cetaceans are "persons" than is whaling then "murder"? Are we calling the Eskimo tribes who to this day hunt whales as part of their cultural tradition "murderers"? I am all for conservation, don't get me wrong, but willy-nilly throwing around the word "person" is not helpful, it is not helpful in the debate about reproductive choice and it is not helpful in the conservation debate either.
A more general idea that the more "conscious" (variously defined) an entity is, the more it should be treated humanely. That makes sense to me, and to most people I would think. But we need to figure out how to do this with getting into ethical quandaries like the ones outlined.
Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists
#68>> They believe dolphins and whales are sufficiently intelligent to justify the same ethical considerations as humans. I don't have a problem with extending legal protection to dolphins, but I do think that "intelligence" as the criteria is morally problematic, at least if it's the sole criteria. For instance, could a person with Down's Syndrome be denied protection from murder? The Christian worldview holds that hum…
Richard Dawkins wrote a short article a while back arguing exactly this point: http://boingboing.net/2011/06/30/richard-dawkins-on-v.html . Of particular interest is his point that it's completely plausible that less intelligent animals would suffer more, in direct contrast to common belief.
Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
A rather limited set of rights to be sure. Children, unless emancipated, lack a great deal of the rights that adults enjoy. Perhaps this is the best way to legally consider dolphins. They have approximately the same rights as human children, until any one of them decides to ask for more.
Short of new mutations, no dolphin has ever, is, or will ever be a fully functioning member of society. Rules of thumb regarding treatment of immature or disabled humans is not at all appropriate.
>a fully functioning member of society
What does that even mean?
Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
A rather limited set of rights to be sure. Children, unless emancipated, lack a great deal of the rights that adults enjoy. Perhaps this is the best way to legally consider dolphins. They have approximately the same rights as human children, until any one of them decides to ask for more.
Short of new mutations, no dolphin has ever, is, or will ever be a fully functioning member of society. Rules of thumb regarding treatment of immature or disabled humans is not at all appropriate.
Fully functioning in society seems to be setting the bar too high; we don't consider that a prerequisite for rights in humans by any reasonable interpretation.
Now, will dolphins ever communicate their desire to achieve greater legal consideration? Not unless we put some more effort into researching communication with dolphins (and even then, I strongly suspect not). Not really a problem though I think.