FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall • Hacker News Board

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#61

Post by autoexec » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 4:23 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #57

jhawk28 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no taste difference between raw and pasteurized milk. The taste comes from the container. If you have both in glass, there is no discernible difference. My father is a dairy farmer and bet his professor (many years ago) that he could taste the difference. The professor setup a blind taste test where he gave my father pasteurized and raw milk in glass cups. There was no difference. "Nutritional value" is a ve…

I find this hard to believe because there is a massive difference in tastes just between two dairies. You can also get low-pasteurization milk from the same dairy and the taste difference is also remarkable.

If neither sample is your usual brand you can get two different flavors, but still not be able to tell which was pasteurized. You could try to guess that the one you liked best was raw and be wrong.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#62

Post by mrguyorama » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 4:24 PM UTC

comrade1234 wrote: post #28

alex43578 wrote: post #25

People’s blindness to the benefits of things like pasteurization, washing their hands, and vaccines is crazy to me. What’s the next trend? Don’t refrigerate meat because “big-fridge” is out to get ya?

Fermented meat is a thing. I know the thought of it is disgusting but corned beef is fermented meat. The best is when the bacteria eat at the connective and the meat gets a slightly foam texture. I make it about once a year.

There was also a tiny "trend" a couple years ago for stupid people letting meat rot and eating it for psychoactive effects.

It was called "High meat" and it was more a trend in garbage news articles than reality but there was a tiny niche of youtube videos at least.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#63

Post by jhawk28 » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 4:27 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #57

jhawk28 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no taste difference between raw and pasteurized milk. The taste comes from the container. If you have both in glass, there is no discernible difference. My father is a dairy farmer and bet his professor (many years ago) that he could taste the difference. The professor setup a blind taste test where he gave my father pasteurized and raw milk in glass cups. There was no difference. "Nutritional value" is a ve…

I find this hard to believe because there is a massive difference in tastes just between two dairies. You can also get low-pasteurization milk from the same dairy and the taste difference is also remarkable.

Yes, different feed, cow breeds, etc are all going to influence taste. You also need to identify the path that the low-pasteurization milk goes through to see if it has anything that will adjust the taste. My father's professor was able to control the variables such that it was the same milk, no contaminates, etc.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#64

Post by black_puppydog » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 4:29 PM UTC

mitkebes wrote: post #13

"Raw Farm has been associated with over a dozen other outbreaks and many recalls in the last 20 years, according to Bill Marler, a personal injury lawyer specializing in food poisoning outbreaks who has kept a record of the company’s outbreaks. Those outbreaks have been caused by a range of pathogenic bacteria known to be risks in unpasteurized dairy products, including E. coli, Salmonella, Campylobacter, and Listeri…

The whole of France is eating quite a lot of unpasteurized cheese. If done correctly, it can be quite safe. Although of course contamination does happen if a significant proportion of your cheese production nationwide is unpasteurized, that's just a numbers game. So yes, it is par for the course, but probably not at this level where the same producer shows up over and over again.

I guess this producer must be extremely confident to be refusing a recall in such a litigious jurisdiction as the USA. Or maybe they've just made the right campaign donations and feel safe enough...

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#65

Post by amluto » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 4:30 PM UTC

harshreality wrote: post #60

comrade1234 wrote: post #19

I make cheese (ricotta and paneer) from raw milk all of the time at home. Raw milk is easy to buy here in Switzerland. I get a noticeably better result with raw milk than pasteurized, and terrible terrible results from ultra-pasteurized milk. By 'better' I mean quantity per liter but also the size of the curds. The thing that I find amusing is that I think people in the USA actually just chug raw milk like it's regul…

Ricotta and paneer appear to be high-heat cheeses, where pasteurization is implicit in the first step even if the milk wasn't pasteurized to begin with. Cheddar, the kind of cheese allegedly at issue in this outbreak, appears to be a low-heat cheese, so you wouldn't start by heating the milk to pasteurization temps. If the milk isn't already pasteurized, the resulting cheese might be contaminated. European soft chees…

> in the interest of supplying "raw milk product" fanatics

You might be on to something. In the US, raw milk cheeses are not at all unusual. It's not even especially hard to buy raw milk, although (at least where I am) you generally need to go to a fancier grocery store or a farmer's market to find it.

But what is weird is that the farm in question literally calls itself "Raw Farm". There are many cheesemakers, both mass-market and high-end, that make both raw-milk and pasteurized-milk cheeses, but they don't generally go out of their way to brand their cheese as one or the other -- if you care, you can read the ingredient list. These companies' product is the cheese, not the rawness of the cheese -- if it tastes good, customers will buy more!

But Raw Farm seems to be a farm that makes a specific point of being, well, raw, and that's strange. Maybe it's a better idea to buy one's raw milk cheeses from an ordinary dairy :)

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#66

Post by eudamoniac » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 4:31 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #57

jhawk28 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no taste difference between raw and pasteurized milk. The taste comes from the container. If you have both in glass, there is no discernible difference. My father is a dairy farmer and bet his professor (many years ago) that he could taste the difference. The professor setup a blind taste test where he gave my father pasteurized and raw milk in glass cups. There was no difference. "Nutritional value" is a ve…

I find this hard to believe because there is a massive difference in tastes just between two dairies. You can also get low-pasteurization milk from the same dairy and the taste difference is also remarkable.

I used to dabble in raw milk and I can confirm the taste is the same, surprisingly.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#67

Post by varenc » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 4:35 PM UTC

comrade1234 wrote: post #19

I make cheese (ricotta and paneer) from raw milk all of the time at home. Raw milk is easy to buy here in Switzerland. I get a noticeably better result with raw milk than pasteurized, and terrible terrible results from ultra-pasteurized milk. By 'better' I mean quantity per liter but also the size of the curds. The thing that I find amusing is that I think people in the USA actually just chug raw milk like it's regul…

You're just pasteurizing the raw milk at home by heating it. But it's interesting that pasteurizing at home right before use still makes better cheese than store bought pasteurized milk. Wonder why. Perhaps raw milk is just superior for reasons besides its lack of pasteurization? In the US at least it's only the very premium milk that can be bought raw.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#68

Post by yread » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 4:36 PM UTC

amluto wrote: post #42

jmclnx wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to be aware of, pasteurization adds costs to dairy products. So it is being done for a real reason, not just "because". Companies will never pay to do anything unless not doing it will open them up to a law suit. So, raw milk does have some risks just based upon the the fact it costs to pasteurize milk.

> One thing to be aware of, pasteurization adds costs to dairy products. So it is being done for a real reason, not just "because". I expect this strongly depends on the dairy product in question. For cheese made at the farm, sure. But for plain milk sold in a supermarket, I expect the improvement in logistics far more than makes up for the cost in pasteurization. People don’t UHT-pasteurize their milk for fun — UHT…

Pasteurized != UHT

Pasteurization is heating to 70C and cooling it down quickly to kill pathogens. The milk needs to be refrigerated afterwards and used within 2 weeks.

UHT is heating it to 140C for 2s a cooling it to kill pathogens and their spores. It significantly changes flavor, destroys 90% of vitamins and changes some of the proteins structure. Lasts a year afterwards

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#69

Post by scottyah » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 4:36 PM UTC

deepvibrations wrote: post #37

Good customer and pro-dairy "Health" Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. may help his friends out here. He himself is very pro-dairy, (thanks to lobby groups i imagine... Several dietary advisers appointed during his tenure have ties to the meat and dairy industry.

Or he's just a traditionalist as he's stated many times, and for a Western European cow (and all derivative products like milk, cheese, beef) are up there with wheat. Bread and butter is a common phrase.

Or there is some big conspiracy and he's trying to get rich at the detriment to his own health, or he's trying to get rich and his entire persona and diet is fake?

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#70

Post by saalweachter » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 4:37 PM UTC

yCombLinks wrote: post #47

dyauspitr wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember growing up, my dad’s family had cows and we would drink the milk raw. The main feature for me was how thick it was. Even the whole milk I buy at stores here is very thin.

That's mostly due to homogenization, a process that spreads the fat evenly through the milk and keeps it from resettling.

It's also my understanding that whole milk isn't necessarily just "pasteurize and pass along"; it really means "3.25% fat".

All the milk has its fat separated out and re-added at specific percents, and the 3.25% for whole milk is just what whoever standardized this thought about typical for whole milk. An individual cow might have a mix that's a little more or less.

If you look around you can occasionally find higher fat milks; I've seen as high as 5% (without getting into half-and-half or heavy cream). You could probably just splash a little heavy cream in yourself if you aren't satisfied with the thickness of whole milk.