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Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

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Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#61

Post by stvltvs »

dolni wrote: post #49
stetrain wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship I think this is fine if it also then means that obtaining a qualifying ID is treated as a no-cost and highly-accessible right for all citizens. This is where such arguments tend to get stuck in the US. If you require proof of citizenship, but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expen…

> but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expensive Where in the US do you find it's difficult for people to get an ID? Where is it not? What percentage of the population has an ID in a place where it's difficult to get one vs somewhere it is easier? What constitutes an ID being expensive? Nearly every country in the world requires proof of citizenship to vote. How…

Proof of citizenship is not the same as the driver's licenses people are issued by their state.

Not everyone has ready access to proof of citizenship in order to register to vote. It gets even more difficult if your current legal name doesn't match your birth name, e.g. if you took your husband's name.

Not every eligible voter has or needs a government issued ID. For example, retired people who don't drive. For them to get to the DMV to get an ID just to vote would be a challenge.

The US has large rural areas where government offices are hours away.

All of this adds up to significant barriers to eligible voters. There's a reason even the GOP isn't bending over backward to pass the SAVE Act.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#62

Post by stvltvs »

zinekeller wrote: post #57
dolni wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expensive Where in the US do you find it's difficult for people to get an ID? Where is it not? What percentage of the population has an ID in a place where it's difficult to get one vs somewhere it is easier? What constitutes an ID being expensive? Nearly every country in the world requires proof of citizenship to vote. How…

> What percentage of the population has an ID in a place where it's difficult to get one vs somewhere it is easier? Not the OP, but except for passports (and passport cards)... there isn't really any federal-level ID in the US (and passport booklets/cards are expensive , just a bit over $100 IIRC). The nearest equivalent in the state level are driver's licenses, which are also on the expensive side considering the an…

Note that drivers licenses wouldn't count as proof of citizenship under the SAVE act.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#63

Post by stvltvs »

appointment wrote: post #60
xvector wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the poorest people have a state ID or drivers license. You cannot get most jobs without some legal ID.

In many states these are available without proof of citizenship. When people say proof of citizenship they usually mean a passport or REALID.

Most state-issued Real IDs don't count as proof of citizenship under the SAVE Act.

https://factually.co/fact-checks/politics/will-save-act-allo...

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#64

Post by stvltvs »

grosswait wrote: post #24
phailhaus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voter registration already requires proof of citizenship. What is the point of requiring that high bar of proof on the day of voting as well?

How is it a high bar of proof if it is already required? Edit: and already met

It's not a requirement in most places. This would be a significant change in practice.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#65

Post by rwmj »

phoronixrly wrote: post #38
atoav wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not even about understanding. It is about how easy it is to distrust it. Contrary to what nerds think, the goal of elections isn't to get bulletproof results by mathematical standards. The goal is to create agreeable consent among those who voted. A good election system is one where even sworn enemies can begrudgingly agree on the result. A paper ballot system has the advantage that it can be monitored by any g…

How about a machine voting system with paper fallback. You as a voter can review the paper protocol from your vote. If there is distrust, the justice system can review the paper trail as well.

I don't understand the reason for electronic voting. The UK manages to tally up paper votes overnight, even from far-flung Scottish islands. Electronic voting is literally solving a problem that nobody has.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#66

Post by stetrain »

Auracle wrote: post #43
stetrain wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship I think this is fine if it also then means that obtaining a qualifying ID is treated as a no-cost and highly-accessible right for all citizens. This is where such arguments tend to get stuck in the US. If you require proof of citizenship, but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expen…

Pretty much every bill that has ever been put forward for needing an ID to vote has had a provision for free IDs. That’s not where things get caught up. Also, it’s a pretty silly thing anyways. I don’t even drink and I still need my driver’s license quite a few times every year.

Free and accessible are not the same thing. And a driver's license is not necessarily proof of citizenship.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#67

Post by stetrain »

dolni wrote: post #49
stetrain wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship I think this is fine if it also then means that obtaining a qualifying ID is treated as a no-cost and highly-accessible right for all citizens. This is where such arguments tend to get stuck in the US. If you require proof of citizenship, but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expen…

> but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expensive Where in the US do you find it's difficult for people to get an ID? Where is it not? What percentage of the population has an ID in a place where it's difficult to get one vs somewhere it is easier? What constitutes an ID being expensive? Nearly every country in the world requires proof of citizenship to vote. How…

There are rural places in the US where it is an hour + drive to whatever the equivalent of the DMV office is, with no public transit. You can find similar places in cities where people may not have a car at all, with a long walk to find such an office that is only open during narrow hours.

People in or near poverty are going to be disproportionately affected by those conditions.

And just getting to the DMV does not necessarily mean you can get an ID that counts as proof of citizenship. There is no standard federal citizen ID in the US. A basic state ID or driver's license is not proof of citizenship. Even a RealID compliant ID is not a direct proof of citizenship, so depending on how strict the voting requirements are it may not be adequate.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#68

Post by stetrain »

ericmay wrote: post #37
stetrain wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship I think this is fine if it also then means that obtaining a qualifying ID is treated as a no-cost and highly-accessible right for all citizens. This is where such arguments tend to get stuck in the US. If you require proof of citizenship, but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expen…

> I think this is fine if it also then means that obtaining a qualifying ID is treated as a no-cost and highly-accessible right for all citizens. I completely agree and I don't think there is a fair argument to suggest otherwise.

Right, so proposals that do not adequately address this point are not fair, and this is why the issue is so contentious in the US.

I absolutely support ID to vote provided that everyone who is eligible and wants to vote can get such an ID and vote without hassle.

I don't support most attempts to pass Voter ID laws because I am wary that they would not actually result in that outcome.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#69

Post by delecti »

stetrain wrote: post #66
Auracle wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much every bill that has ever been put forward for needing an ID to vote has had a provision for free IDs. That’s not where things get caught up. Also, it’s a pretty silly thing anyways. I don’t even drink and I still need my driver’s license quite a few times every year.

Free and accessible are not the same thing. And a driver's license is not necessarily proof of citizenship.

Yep. And in fact there's been a ton of resistance for 20 years to rolling out an alternate form of driver's license which does act as proof of citizenship. See the REAL ID, which even now is only kinda a requirement to fly domestically.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#70

Post by mplewis9z »

orwin wrote: post #59
xvector wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the poorest people have a state ID or drivers license. You cannot get most jobs without some legal ID.

In the US, a driver license isn't a proof of citizenship. Also, state IDs are not accepted by federal agencies, so it probably wouldn't work as proof of citizenship on federal elections.

Federal elections are all run by the individual states, so a state ID would be all you need.
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