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Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

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Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#11
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they probably started with small-scale pilots, too.

Yes, they did. But I think that the main reason is that Brazil's elections were a lot dirtier and a lot more unreliable than Switzerland's. What I mean is that the push towards e-voting is much stronger in countries with unreliable elections, because e-voting is harder to tamper than the crude ways you can defraud paper ballots. Switzerland's and other organized countries have elections that are "good enough", so the…

Actually I don't understand the push towards e-voting in countries like Switzerland. E-voting can be hacked from the other side of the world, because it happens on computers. In-person voting or physical mail is much harder to hack from the other side of the world.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#12
I don't care how much maths and encryption you use, you can't get out of the fact that things can be anonymous (no one can know how you voted) or verifiable (people can prove that you only voted once) but not both.

- Switzerland usually gets around this by knowing where everyone lives and mailing them a piece of paper 'something you have'

- South Africa gets around this by putting ink on your fingernail

I've read quite a bit about the e-voting systems in Switzerland and USA and I just don't see how they thread the needle. At some point, you have to give someone access to a database and they can change that database.

Until we all have government-issued public keys or something, there isn't a technical solution to this? (Genuinely curious if I'm wrong here)

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#14
post #5
post #2

The title is misleading. It's an e-voting PILOT. That's important. "Switzerland is running small-scale e-voting pilots in four of its 26 cantons", three of which were not affected. From Wikipedia [1]: > A pilot experiment, pilot study, pilot test or pilot project is a small-scale preliminary study conducted to evaluate feasibility, duration, cost, adverse events, and improve upon the study design prior to performance…

Had to truncate the title since too long for HN (often the case for the Register)

You cut out something that changed the message entirely

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#15
Stories like this probably scare some people off from electronic voting but I don't think this is that big of a deal. When we finish voting operations in my area we load the ballots up on someone's personal vehicle and they take them down, securely, to where they need to go. That vehicle could get blown up and those ballots could be gone, though I think we could still get a record of the results.

That being said for the United States, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship, and making "voting day" a paid national holiday. Not so much for technical or efficiency reasons but for social reasons. I'd argue it should be mandatory but I don't think we should force people to do anything we don't have to force them to do, and I'm not sure we want disinterested people voting anyway.

Exercising democracy, requiring people to put in a minimal amount of thought and effort goes a long way. It should be a celebratory day with cookies and apple pie and free beer for all. Not some cold, AI-riddled, stay in your house and never meet your neighbors, clicking a few buttons to accept the Terms of Democracy process.

I know there's a lot of discussion points around "efficiency" or "cost" or "accessibility" or how difficult it supposedly is to have an ID (which is weird when you look at how other countries run elections) and there are certainly things to discuss there, but by and large I think the continued digitalization and alienation of Americans is a much worse problem that can be addressed with more in-person activities and participation in society. We're losing too many touchpoints with reality.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#16
post #12

I don't care how much maths and encryption you use, you can't get out of the fact that things can be anonymous (no one can know how you voted) or verifiable (people can prove that you only voted once) but not both. - Switzerland usually gets around this by knowing where everyone lives and mailing them a piece of paper 'something you have' - South Africa gets around this by putting ink on your fingernail I've read qui…

> At some point, you have to give someone access to a database and they can change that database.

It's the only problem in existence that can be solved by the blockchain...

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#17
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they did. But I think that the main reason is that Brazil's elections were a lot dirtier and a lot more unreliable than Switzerland's. What I mean is that the push towards e-voting is much stronger in countries with unreliable elections, because e-voting is harder to tamper than the crude ways you can defraud paper ballots. Switzerland's and other organized countries have elections that are "good enough", so the…

Actually I don't understand the push towards e-voting in countries like Switzerland. E-voting can be hacked from the other side of the world, because it happens on computers. In-person voting or physical mail is much harder to hack from the other side of the world.

Can't talk about Switzerland, don't know the particularities.

But in continental countries like Brazil it makes a lot of sense. It is cheaper, faster and safer.

> E-voting can be hacked from the other side of the world, because it happens on computers

How do you "hack from the other side of the world" a computer that isn't even online? True, the transmission of computed results is made online, but keeping that safe is trivial, banks do it.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#18
post #6

eVoting cannot be understood and audited by normal citizens, not even by nerdy ones. It's just good for the trash.

It is not even about understanding. It is about how easy it is to distrust it.

Contrary to what nerds think, the goal of elections isn't to get bulletproof results by mathematical standards. The goal is to create agreeable consent among those who voted. A good election system is one where even sworn enemies can begrudgingly agree on the result.

A paper ballot system has the advantage that it can be monitored by any group that has members which have mastered the skill of object permanence and don't lie. That is not everybody, but it is much better than any hypothetical digital system

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#19
post #15

Stories like this probably scare some people off from electronic voting but I don't think this is that big of a deal. When we finish voting operations in my area we load the ballots up on someone's personal vehicle and they take them down, securely, to where they need to go. That vehicle could get blown up and those ballots could be gone, though I think we could still get a record of the results. That being said for…

Voter registration already requires proof of citizenship. What is the point of requiring that high bar of proof on the day of voting as well?

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#20
post #6

eVoting cannot be understood and audited by normal citizens, not even by nerdy ones. It's just good for the trash.

The ballot voting process is also misunderstood by regular citizens, even nerdy ones. From experience, even by voting officials.
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