The GNOME/GTK devs are on a mission - they fight down all xorg users. That's not good.
There are dozens of you. Dozens!
Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"
61–70 of 76 posts
Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
> things like primarily designing the interface for a touch screen, despite PC touch screens not really taking off. That was actually an absolute godsend using the Pinephone, and IMO laid the groundwork for the Librem 5 (and modern Linux-on-Mobile interfaces) to take root. I do not believe PostmarketOS would be doing as well as it is if they didn't have apps that play nicely with touch. You don't use it, and you don'…
I really don't understand why we need to absolutely ruin desktop UIs in order to have mobile interfaces. For web UIs it may be argued as a necessary evil as designing multiple front-ends is expensive and reactive UIs can theoretically be made to exist and shown in small demos to be decent, but when designing desktop applications?
Having a framework that can be adaptable, like GTK, allows for padded, but IMO reasonably-sized touch targets. Designing an adaptive desktop app means the effort is only spent once, but can kickstart the virtuous cycle of "Mobile Linux is less trash than it used to be" -> More users are willing to use Mobile Linux -> More effort is spent making it less trash.
Though if you insist on click-targets that are exclusively for the mouse, I've found most KDE apps less mobile-optimized. The elderly and mobile users can appreciate larger touch-targets, and you can avoid GTK, which seems like a perfect compromise
Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have no idea about the affiliations of that dev and i have zero interest in defending/promoting or condemning his personal opinions. That being said: i will gladly run working software written from a far right developer rather than half-assed broken software written by a far-left developer. Politics does not influence my choices in software (quality does). Anyway, the thing is: fascist behaviours aren’t an exclusiv…
Except that he was kicked out for sending in patches that weren't working, failed the build tests and had obviously next actually been tested. Repeatedly. It reached AI slop level PRs and people got sick of it. > Politics does not influence my choices in software (quality does). Then why are you linking to a guy who has been making broken changes?
Xorg as a whole was much higher in quality when the push for broken wayland stuff started. You’re lagging.
Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm personally open to Wayland, and able to move to it (and sometimes have, though once I had to back it out because it was breaking too much in a critical factory embedded appliance) (and XMonad works noticeably better for me than i3wm/Sway). But not everyone can move to it. Wayland is only one of the many Gnome desktop feature and technical decisions that not everyone agrees with. Some decisions are regressions, an…
> When I would've guessed Gnome corporate funders would've been focused on getting Linux desktop on corporate desktop Already a decade ago, I commented on a news-for-nerds site like this one, “Well, GNOME makes choices we don’t like, but they are focused on the corporate-desktop market.” But then a GNOME developer replied to correct me: “That’s an old misconception, we are not mainly focused on the corporate desktop”…
As a casual linux user with a 2in1 framework I feel very represented by Gnome's design choices, but I'll admit that I know I am nowhere close to representing most linux users. I do also really like it on the desktop too fwiw.
Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would you like to read what an Xfce developer said about GTK stewardship?[1][2] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40568184 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40568042
I read them, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, or why it's directed at my comment. I mean that genuinely. This Xfce dev says that GTK4 is less capable than GTK3, and they feel that GTK5 will continue in that direction. They also acknowledge certain things in the first comment: > [0] Full disclosure: I'm an Xfce developer, and have been disappointed with the direction GTK has been taking for some time…
You raised GTK stewardship. I replied about GTK stewardship. Why raise GTK stewardship and complain replies are not about Mutter exclusively? Why raise GTK stewardship and dismiss it saying so be it?
The 2 paragraphs you quoted did not represent the 10 you did not.
An Xfce developer saying they can't recommend GTK for new projects outside the GNOME umbrella had information your comment did not. It was not basically exactly what you said.
Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"
#66Wayland is still years away from usable state. You still can't even autotype keepassxc passwords and there are still no good solutions for remote desktop sessions (at least I have not found any last time i checked)
Perhap Claude, Gemini, and Codex will finally make things come along sooner than later
Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"
#67Wayland is still years away from usable state. You still can't even autotype keepassxc passwords and there are still no good solutions for remote desktop sessions (at least I have not found any last time i checked)
> Wayland is still years away from usable state … for you, surely. I’m sure there are some wayland users. > autotype keepassxc passwords What is that? > remote desktop sessions IIRC, gnome comes with an ootb RDP solution that, last I tried, worked as advertised. I’m not a big remote user though.
> What is that?
I believe they refer to KeePassXC's autofill feature, which autotypes credentials into other applications. I've never used this in X and won't use it on Wayland, as I prefer to keep all applications isolated.
I Ctrl-C to copy and then manually paste the password. Wayland is better for this method because I know the clipboard is cleared once I close KeePassXC.
Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"
#68I had to look up what "Gnome Mutter" is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutter_(software) > Mutter is a window manager initially designed and implemented for the X Window System, but then evolved to be a display server ("Wayland compositor"). It became the default window manager in GNOME 3, Gnome alienated some developers around the time of GTK 3, and there have sometimes been regressions, and some opinionated unconve…
I think the GNOME/GTK devs alienated numerous devs. I tried to talk to ebassi but he censored me on reddit as a consequence. He does not like people speaking up against what the GTK devs do. I have no hope for GTK. It is a GNOMEy toolkit now.
> I have no hope for GTK. It is a GNOMEy toolkit now.
G(nome)T(ool)K(it). It always was. It is a CADT program: every new version is a complete and incompatible implementation of the old version.
Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"
#69I had to look up what "Gnome Mutter" is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutter_(software) > Mutter is a window manager initially designed and implemented for the X Window System, but then evolved to be a display server ("Wayland compositor"). It became the default window manager in GNOME 3, Gnome alienated some developers around the time of GTK 3, and there have sometimes been regressions, and some opinionated unconve…
How many X11 holdouts are still around, really? I'm a curmudgeonly old man fond of old tech, but I have still had a Wayland-only setup since early 2020; once Sway was there as a good tiling window manager, and Emacs got its Wayland-ready pure-gtk branch, there was no need to look back. I of course see people here and there on forums express discontent, but I don't think that demographic is big enough to drive both si…
> How many X11 holdouts are still around, really?
A lot. I have no idea how to start "Wayland" on Slackware. I use FVWM.
OTOH, i saw Wayland in Tails. It is slow and ugly as hell, window managent is nonexistent.
Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the GNOME/GTK devs alienated numerous devs. I tried to talk to ebassi but he censored me on reddit as a consequence. He does not like people speaking up against what the GTK devs do. I have no hope for GTK. It is a GNOMEy toolkit now.
> I have no hope for GTK. It is a GNOMEy toolkit now. G(nome)T(ool)K(it). It always was. It is a CADT program: every new version is a complete and incompatible implementation of the old version.
> G(nome)T(ool)K(it). It always was.
I believe it was the "Gimp Tool Kit" originally, and Wikipedia agrees:
> GTK (formerly GIMP ToolKit[3] and GTK+[4]) is a free open-source widget toolkit for creating graphical user interfaces (GUIs)[5]
Maybe the confusion is that it was sometimes called "GTK+" in the brand name originally (though most people just said "GTK" anyway, and that's what the code identifiers said).
Gimp (the photo/image editor) was already pretty sophisticated for years before Gnome was even started.
The first Gnome-branded library that I recall in the GTK space was Gnome Canvas.
The earlier commenter's point stands. Though my impression was that GTK was de facto taken over by Gnome around GTK 3 (though you could still write GUI apps without bringing in the fleet of Gnome desktop services).