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Germany must stand firmly against client-side scanning in Chat Control [pdf]

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Re: Germany must stand firmly against client-side scanning in Chat Control [pdf]

#61

Post by roywiggins »

jMyles wrote: post #55

It's great that signal / open whisper engage in the political situation and the pressure on these states. We also need to be sure that signal / open whisper / matrix / telegram / everybody continues to make end-to-end encryption available regardless of what politicians say. Math is bigger than human affairs. There is no shame in breaking laws that prohibit math.

Chat Control doesn't prohibit you from using whatever encryption you want, it mandates that your phone snitch on any plaintext that it has access to.

Re: Germany must stand firmly against client-side scanning in Chat Control [pdf]

#62

Post by _9ptr »

okanat wrote: post #29
IlikeKitties wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Deep down, Client Side Scanning that's what both want. Let's be absolutely real the CDU wants complete government access to all private communications on demand with essentially endless retention. They just aren't allowed yet.

They have the crosshairs on preparing the government and law for the AfD take over for the second trial of 1933. Just like the useless Bundestag of Weimar, they would like to leave as many mines and holes in the democratic institutions so their true self can show how perfect a racist government feels.

What? Are you saying that the CDU is secretly working for the AfD?

First time I heard that, what bubble are you from?

Re: Germany must stand firmly against client-side scanning in Chat Control [pdf]

#63

Post by petre »

1718627440 wrote: post #45
Netcob wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some more recent crimes against society and humanity, I'd also compare it to Stasi. Plenty of people alive today who lived with that. Around 1 in 30 people was secretly telling on their neighbors. After unification, it was presented as a dark chapter in German history that had finally come to an end. People would get to look into their own "file" to see what and how much had been written about their daily activit…

They did say these protesting on the street are outlaws who also rape and kill the little children.

Unsurprisingly the Stasi and Gestapo types always say things like that.

Re: Germany must stand firmly against client-side scanning in Chat Control [pdf]

#64

Post by layer8 »

throw_a_grenade wrote: post #21

I'm sorry to pick non-technical details, but this PDF is typeset on „Letter” paper, which is immediately noticeable (different aspect ratio). Normally it's on „yeah, whatever” level, but since this paper (sic) aims to influence European policy, now this detail is actually important. This whole piece reeks „I'm an 1) outsider that 2) couldn't be bothered to get to know local culture so 3) probably has no stake in the…

The letter also says “October 3, 2025” instead of “3 October 2025”. ;)

(https://commission.europa.eu/system/files/2023-11/styleguide...)

But anyway, if they truly wanted to address the letter to Germans, they should be providing a German-language version in the first place.

Re: Germany must stand firmly against client-side scanning in Chat Control [pdf]

#65

Post by roywiggins »

ForceOfEntropy wrote: post #59
thadt wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would PGP help in the long run? If client side scanning is mandated for everything then the natural place for it to wind up is in the OS. Once your OS is scanning all the things, your privacy is finished - pretty good or otherwise.

In that case you could an Arduino, Raspberry Pi, or similar to write and convert the message. The converted msg can then be sent over USB, wifi, etc to the computer

Right, and then Chat Control looks at the encrypted text and goes "oh huh this looks encrypted and suspicious, let's put this user on a list for closer inspection" or eventually just refuses to let you send the message at all. Steganography is hard and it will be very difficult to hide that you're sending encrypted messages.

Re: Germany must stand firmly against client-side scanning in Chat Control [pdf]

#66

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

thadt wrote: post #42
kekqqq wrote: post #4

No one should remove from us the right to privacy in chat rooms. Otherwise, PGP might become cool again, or I bet that there will be new ways to chat without mass surveillance.

How would PGP help in the long run? If client side scanning is mandated for everything then the natural place for it to wind up is in the OS. Once your OS is scanning all the things, your privacy is finished - pretty good or otherwise.

Microsoft has been pushing Recall for a while now. Clearly they will make it a cornerstone feature, potentially without the ability to opt out.

Re: Germany must stand firmly against client-side scanning in Chat Control [pdf]

#67

Post by AAAAaccountAAAA »

nickslaughter02 wrote: post #31

I think many outside of EU dismiss this as an EU only thing and don't think much about it. 1. Have you ever texted someone from EU? You are now chat controlled too. 2. EU is pumping billions to foreign countries to promote EU values. How long until they condition this "help" with chat control?

It's definitely not an EU only thing. China, Russia and such have been doing this for years. There have been attempts to introduce it in US (EARN IT Act) as well, and the current regime there might very well end up doing that. Australia has also been pretty authoritarian what it comes to this kind of things.

Re: Germany must stand firmly against client-side scanning in Chat Control [pdf]

#68

Post by AAAAaccountAAAA »

guywithahat wrote: post #6

> Under the guise of protecting children, the latest Chat Control proposals would require mass scanning of every message, photo, and video on a person’s device, assessing these via a government-mandated database or AI model to determine whether they are permissible content or not. This is pretty terrifying, although not unexpected. Given Germany's aggressive crackdown on speech I wouldn't feel too optimistic. If the…

I don't think those issues are necessarily interconnected. If I have understood it correctly, many Germans view both hateful propaganda and surveillance as tools of dictators.

Surveillance of private communications obviously has a chilling effect on free speech as well, but freedom from surveillance does not imply a freedom to openly spread hate speech in public.

Re: Germany must stand firmly against client-side scanning in Chat Control [pdf]

#69

Post by weinzierl »

nisten wrote: post #22

I think a good way to shame politicians that push this type of erosion of civil liberties is to label it at gestapoware.

Besides that this is likely a criminal offense in Germany[1] we tried it 16 years ago with "Zensursula" and you can see how that turned out.

[1] §86a StGB "Use of symbols of unconstitutional organizations" applies also to words, not just symbols in the strict sense. It is also enforced in broad coarse strokes for example on the usage of the swastika inside a red prohibition circle (the one with a diagonal bar).

EDIT: Looking back at my comment, I realize it might come across as too negative. If you think shaming politicians is the right way to protest this, go for it.

I just believe convincing politicians that the spirit they summon may easily slip from their control and turn against them is a more likely successful angle.

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