Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#61

Post by spec_laconic » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 2:01 AM UTC

Mizza wrote: post #38

I went to school in Boston and knew lots of people of Harvard and MIT, and the amount of cheating was absolutely staggering. The "Greek"/frat network contributes to this cheating culture greatly (some houses more than others, but they're all part of it.) Personally, I think that some of these people are so used to being that #1 student that when they're surrounded by other #1'ers, they do whatever it takes to remain…

I can't speak to frats or Harvard, but I can speak of personal experience of MIT. When I began taking courses at MIT, I worked my proverbial ass off in a very difficult class in CS (course 6 by their parlance) and got an A. After the semester was over, I found out that students generally work together on labs, which was a major portion of the class, and would have significantly lightened my load. (Talking about spending entire weekends with hands-on-keyboard, very unreasonable amount of work for one person, even an overachieving one such as myself)

This is a _cultural_ difference of MIT; people tend to work with one another, or they tend to fail. They learn it freshman year, and it's ingrained in their psyche from then on.

Interestingly, the line between cooperative work and cheating is difficult to discern and mostly set up by the professor. When the professor does not say one way or another if the work is collaborative, students will generally consider it collaborative.

As for the "[n]ever build cool things" troll, I'll let you google the number of neat inventions by famous MIT / Harvard alums; I won't waste my time.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#62

Post by MisterMerkin » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 2:53 AM UTC

oob205 wrote: post #21

tlrobinson wrote: post #14

"Some students asked whether there was a fundamental contradiction between telling students to use online resources, but not to discuss the test with each other." No.

Um..yes. Study groups or websites are online resources. So is facebook. If a student posts the questions online and starts discussions with anonymous posters, or even reads relevant discussions posted online before the test, how is that different from discussing with one another. There are plenty of ways to have a test that explicitly prevents collaboration. This professor clearly did not try.

Do you really believe that the professor said they are not allowed to consult each other in person but may consult each other online?

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#63

Post by edge17 » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 2:56 AM UTC

badclient wrote: post #22

gizmo wrote: post #16

Most people here are saying that the students were clearly in the wrong. "Lack intellectual curiosity and character". "spoiled children". I don't agree at all. Aside from the formal rules, smart people pick up on which rules can be broken safely. In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life. Jaywalking is illegal in most (all…

Jaywalking in Manhattan, on the other hand is not done and you better not do it within eyesight of a police officer. Seriously? I have stayed in Manhattan for couple years and done my share of jaywalking occasionally in clear sight of NYPD. May be I am just lucky but this just doesn't resonate with me.

i've seen people get tickets in time square. that's about it though

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#64

Post by oob205 » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 4:06 AM UTC

mbreese wrote: post #41

oob205 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um..yes. Study groups or websites are online resources. So is facebook. If a student posts the questions online and starts discussions with anonymous posters, or even reads relevant discussions posted online before the test, how is that different from discussing with one another. There are plenty of ways to have a test that explicitly prevents collaboration. This professor clearly did not try.

There is a fundamental difference between using online resources to find an answer to a question and collaborating with others to find the same answer. Part of the grade is based on how well you can find the answers, not how well your collective group can. If the test is open book, open Internet, that doesn't mean you can ask your friends on Facebook for help, just because Facebook is on the Internet. I think that th…

I dont think students are all in the clear in the least bit. I just happen to believe that permitting online resources implies permitting collaboration, as the internet is a tool for collaboration as much as it is a tool for pure research. As far as I'm concerned, it a test is open internet, then it's de facto collaboration permitted.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#65

Post by Mizza » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 4:09 AM UTC

spec_laconic wrote: post #61

Mizza wrote: post #38

I went to school in Boston and knew lots of people of Harvard and MIT, and the amount of cheating was absolutely staggering. The "Greek"/frat network contributes to this cheating culture greatly (some houses more than others, but they're all part of it.) Personally, I think that some of these people are so used to being that #1 student that when they're surrounded by other #1'ers, they do whatever it takes to remain…

I can't speak to frats or Harvard, but I can speak of personal experience of MIT. When I began taking courses at MIT, I worked my proverbial ass off in a very difficult class in CS (course 6 by their parlance) and got an A. After the semester was over, I found out that students generally work together on labs, which was a major portion of the class, and would have significantly lightened my load. (Talking about spend…

Not what I meant. I'm actually in favor of people working collaboratively on problems, I'm talking about computer-servers full of P-Set solns, essays, old tests, occasionally the sale of these for money, etc etc etc.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#66

Post by Jd » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 5:52 AM UTC

001sky wrote: post #56

Jd wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I personally believe in right and wrong, but also in degrees of right and wrong. Doing the right thing in a situation where everyone else is doing the wrong thing is more difficult. Doing the right thing when everyone is doing the right thing is easy. Thus, you don't really know your values or the depth of your values until you are placed in a situation where it is difficult to carry them out. Here, for "culp…

Your analysis is not wrong. The UCI/The Tour DeFrance, Lance Armstrong were just as bad. You highlight lots of good issues (including - other people making money off it regardless of who wins, the act of not doping was arguably dangerous, given the exertion levels of the pack, etc). The conclusion of this section is fine I'd also agree with (It is true). But ultimately you fail to provide a framework for analysis. Yo…

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with contemporary doping scandals to offer programmatic advice on what can be done about them, except to say that in my view here too we are probably at the cusp of major shift in a massive historical trend. This trend I suspect will end with 'doping' being considered the norm not only among athletes but among the general population, and the chemicals used will be seen as an generally accepted life enhancement rather than an aberration -- much like vitamin supplements already are. What to do about it today, when doping is illegal, at least within the context of professional sports competitions? I don't know, especially since in this context it seems that the trend is a scientific one, perhaps mixed with a degradation in values (here I'm simply not informed enough to comment).

You want to "fix" the problem? It probably depends on the gravity of the specific offense and the pervasiveness of the offense. Pushing a few people harshly and publicly can send a statement that certain things are not acceptable, and curb abuses by others who are watching them. This is not a particularly bad tactic, but again it is context specific.

My own approach is always to fit the solution to the problem in such a way that the optimal outcome (i.e. reduction of abuses in the short and long-term) is achieved.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#67

Post by Locke1689 » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 7:08 AM UTC

cbhl wrote: post #37

Locke1689 wrote: post #4

How much "cheating" was actually done here? Was it simply that people's answers looked similar? On a take-home test with open book, open Internet, you'd expect that everyone would probably Google the same sources. I'm also suspicious of people who claim that sharing notes is in violation of some cheating rule. I posted the source code to most of my school projects on GitHub. If people want to crib off my code that's…

> I posted the source code to most of my school projects on GitHub. If people want to crib off my code that's not my problem -- I did the work, whether or not they want to is their problem. This is not true at all post-secondary institutions. For example, the University of Waterloo's Policy 71 - Student Discipline[0] explicitly puts the burden on you to prevent others from cribbing your work: "Students are responsibl…

My school does not have this policy.

It appears ludicrous on its face. If I leave my house unlocked and someone steals all my things, what ethical boundary have I violated? No criminal is an agent of my will. Not locking my doors does not make me complicit in my own robbery.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#68

Post by tlrobinson » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 9:05 AM UTC

oob205 wrote: post #64

mbreese wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a fundamental difference between using online resources to find an answer to a question and collaborating with others to find the same answer. Part of the grade is based on how well you can find the answers, not how well your collective group can. If the test is open book, open Internet, that doesn't mean you can ask your friends on Facebook for help, just because Facebook is on the Internet. I think that th…

I dont think students are all in the clear in the least bit. I just happen to believe that permitting online resources implies permitting collaboration, as the internet is a tool for collaboration as much as it is a tool for pure research. As far as I'm concerned, it a test is open internet, then it's de facto collaboration permitted.

In general I agree, but the professor explicitly told them not to discuss the test with each other.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#69

Post by zerostar07 » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 11:30 AM UTC

dschobel wrote: post #60

zerostar07 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that school is not real life. It's like a game or a sport where you train for real life. Is it right to unilaterally break the rules of a game?

Seems like an arbitrary distinction. Job, school, marriage, et al are all social constructs with certain principles and rules to try keep things operating smoothly and beneficially to all participants. You can break the rules in any of them to the detriment of your counter-parties. In this case, they cheapen the brand of a Harvard degree and potentially screw the non-cheaters if there's a grading curve.

I think there is a distinction, since cheating completely defeats the purpose of school (learning) or games (fun), while breaking some rules may create more value than it destroys in the case of entrepreneurs (like Airbnb and Uber do).

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#70

Post by npisenti » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 3:08 PM UTC

monjaro wrote: post #51

cwdutch wrote: post #48

"For being at an elite "best-of-the-best" school, these students sure sound like a bunch of spoiled children", "They're not the people who ever build cool things anyway though, so who cares." - These and similar sentiments seem a bit common on HN and, to me, seem rather myopic and, frankly, immature. The latter statement is pretty clearly false and I don't plan on listing examples to demonstrate that. Going to a "bes…

Okay, I'm the one that said they sound like spoiled children, so I'll bite. Can you explain to me how that is myopic and immature? These are all quotes from the article: "He said, 'I gave out 120 A’s last year, and I’ll give out 120 more,' " "Having my degree revoked now would mean I lose my job." "some said that they will sue the university if any serious punishment is meted out" "Some students asked whether there w…

I totally agree. And it sounds like the students knew perfectly well that they were cheating... "[one of the students] said that he also discussed test questions with other students, which he acknowledged was prohibited, but he maintained that the practice was widespread and accepted." Now they are just whining that they got caught ("I'm a Harvard grad, god dammit!").

I went to a small science/engineering school with a very serious honor code, and can assure you there is nothing contradictory about saying "you may use online resources, but do not discuss this test with anyone." It's sad that some Harvard students think their privilege entitles them to ignore the rules.