Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#21

Post by oob205 » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:46 PM UTC

tlrobinson wrote: post #14

"Some students asked whether there was a fundamental contradiction between telling students to use online resources, but not to discuss the test with each other." No.

Um..yes. Study groups or websites are online resources. So is facebook. If a student posts the questions online and starts discussions with anonymous posters, or even reads relevant discussions posted online before the test, how is that different from discussing with one another. There are plenty of ways to have a test that explicitly prevents collaboration. This professor clearly did not try.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#22

Post by badclient » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:47 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #16

Most people here are saying that the students were clearly in the wrong. "Lack intellectual curiosity and character". "spoiled children". I don't agree at all. Aside from the formal rules, smart people pick up on which rules can be broken safely. In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life. Jaywalking is illegal in most (all…

Jaywalking in Manhattan, on the other hand is not done and you better not do it within eyesight of a police officer.

Seriously? I have stayed in Manhattan for couple years and done my share of jaywalking occasionally in clear sight of NYPD. May be I am just lucky but this just doesn't resonate with me.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#23

Post by graeme » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:50 PM UTC

badclient wrote: post #22

gizmo wrote: post #16

Most people here are saying that the students were clearly in the wrong. "Lack intellectual curiosity and character". "spoiled children". I don't agree at all. Aside from the formal rules, smart people pick up on which rules can be broken safely. In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life. Jaywalking is illegal in most (all…

Jaywalking in Manhattan, on the other hand is not done and you better not do it within eyesight of a police officer. Seriously? I have stayed in Manhattan for couple years and done my share of jaywalking occasionally in clear sight of NYPD. May be I am just lucky but this just doesn't resonate with me.

Everyone jaywalked when I was in Manhattan. It's a very pedestrian city.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#24

Post by EricBurnett » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:51 PM UTC

badclient wrote: post #22

gizmo wrote: post #16

Most people here are saying that the students were clearly in the wrong. "Lack intellectual curiosity and character". "spoiled children". I don't agree at all. Aside from the formal rules, smart people pick up on which rules can be broken safely. In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life. Jaywalking is illegal in most (all…

Jaywalking in Manhattan, on the other hand is not done and you better not do it within eyesight of a police officer. Seriously? I have stayed in Manhattan for couple years and done my share of jaywalking occasionally in clear sight of NYPD. May be I am just lucky but this just doesn't resonate with me.

Substitute Seattle for Manhattan and the point stands.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#25

Post by jimmar » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:51 PM UTC

tlrobinson wrote: post #14

"Some students asked whether there was a fundamental contradiction between telling students to use online resources, but not to discuss the test with each other." No.

Maybe in the past there was more of a distinction between online resources and peers, but today I think the line is quite blurred. Would a thoughtful online discussion of the students enrolled in the class be considered an online resource, or would it be classified as discussing the test with others?

Personally, I think some of the most valuable learning happens when discussing course content with my peers. Sometimes, I take the role of the learner, other times I'm forced to test my own understanding when explaining things to others. It's a win-win. Because I engage with others, it's likely that many of the same ideas I put down on paper would be similar to other people's work. But I don't consider that cheating. However, I would never take an answer that somebody else had written, change the words around, and submit it. Not being directly involved in this case at Harvard, it's hard to tell exactly what the students did.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#26

Post by denzil_correa » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:52 PM UTC

My assessment

The course instructor set the rules but the implementation was "loose" (casual). The students went one step too far in their liberties. I think it's a collective failure on part of the professor, TFs and students.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#27

Post by gizmo » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:53 PM UTC

badclient wrote: post #22

gizmo wrote: post #16

Most people here are saying that the students were clearly in the wrong. "Lack intellectual curiosity and character". "spoiled children". I don't agree at all. Aside from the formal rules, smart people pick up on which rules can be broken safely. In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life. Jaywalking is illegal in most (all…

Jaywalking in Manhattan, on the other hand is not done and you better not do it within eyesight of a police officer. Seriously? I have stayed in Manhattan for couple years and done my share of jaywalking occasionally in clear sight of NYPD. May be I am just lucky but this just doesn't resonate with me.

I guess I'm wrong about that then. When I was there last everybody seemed to wait for the light to turn green. I'll edit the original post.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#28

Post by kajecounterhack » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:54 PM UTC

Uchikoma wrote: post #20

Jd wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to remove blame where blame is due, but in both cases there are incentive and regulatory problems. If you give people problems whereby they feel that they cannot do well without cheating (i.e. when everyone else is cheating), then cheating becomes institutionalized. Thus, to be cheating in a class where 99% of the students are cheating is to be somewhat less culpable than to be among the students cheating when on…

"Thus, to be cheating in a class where 99% of the students are cheating is to be somewhat less culpable than to be among the students cheating when only 1% of the students are cheating." No.

I'm pretty sure I agree with you but comments like these could be more verbose. It's not helpful to simply disagree without explanation. One word responses are just dogmatic.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#29

Post by 001sky » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:58 PM UTC

Jd wrote: post #13

arjunnarayan wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you not been paying attention to the entitlement and attitudes of the global financial elite in 2009-2010? This was precisely their response to the mismanagement of the banks: everybody was doing it, it was accepted, now bail us out and leave.

Not to remove blame where blame is due, but in both cases there are incentive and regulatory problems. If you give people problems whereby they feel that they cannot do well without cheating (i.e. when everyone else is cheating), then cheating becomes institutionalized. Thus, to be cheating in a class where 99% of the students are cheating is to be somewhat less culpable than to be among the students cheating when on…

TL;DR

1 - Wall of words

2 - Lance Armstrong

Question is: how do you clean it up?

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#30

Post by tmsh » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:58 PM UTC

The thing about intellectual honesty is that when you don't feel like you know much relative to your peers and context (e.g., you're a freshman at Harvard), you don't think you have much to lose. You don't realize what you have to lose until it becomes clear about all the hidden potential that you've taken for granted and that you're risking -- how important intellectual honesty is to any type of sustainable effort.

So there is a chicken and egg problem with intellectual honesty. You don't appreciate it until you've acquired experience. And you don't acquire sustainable experience until you start to appreciate it.

The flip side though is that most young people just need to be told and slightly inspired about how important it is. Then they need to develop that over several years. In college can work. Learning to be confident with your own intellectual pursuits based on honesty though -- that's what college is supposed to teach. But yeah, a lot of time in all the competitiveness, it gets lost.