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Systemd has been a complete, utter, unmitigated success

blog.tjll.net

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Re: Systemd has been a complete, utter, unmitigated success

#61

Post by akdev1l »

msgodel wrote: post #59
Analemma_ wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of writing and adopting one or more, Linux allowed Redhat to take over the last piece of itself, its spine, after which Redhat sold itself to IBM. Linux is an IBM product. Who exactly was going to write the systemd alternative? If by "Linux" you mean the kernel devs, that was never going to happen-- systemd is a middleware stack living in userspace, the kernel guys were never going to get involved. If you m…

OpenRC is great, there's just no flashy marketing behind it or team of consultants pushing it. EDIT: Heh. At least I can debug a shell script, I can't debug a config file. I think this is a fundamental disagreement many people have in what's ultimately desirable when designing software. I personally can't stand non-trivial config files and both at work and at home have wasted way too much time pulling apart software…

#!/sbin/openrc-run

depend() { need net }

# Export some ENVs for it export SERVER_ADDRESS="0.0.0.0:8088"

name="my-program" description="My program" command="/usr/local/bin/my-program" # If it does not know how to background iself command_background=true pidfile="/run/${RC_SVCNAME}.pid" # To have logs output_log="/var/log/${RC_SVCNAME}.log" error_log="/var/log/${RC_SVCNAME}.err"

It seems that it still uses Turing-complete shell scripts as configuration. Hard pass.

Re: Systemd has been a complete, utter, unmitigated success

#62

Post by shrubble »

hungryhobbit wrote: post #27
shrubble wrote: post #18

My view is pragmatic: if you are managing the server and I am a user, then use systemd if you want to. If it’s my responsibility then I will use a non-systemd distribution or if I have a choice, FreeBSD.

FreeBSD is many great things, but ... a pragmatic choice?

It works for many, including Netflix. The jails are better integrated as a lightweight container system than Docker is on Linux, IMHO.

Re: Systemd has been a complete, utter, unmitigated success

#63

Post by rootnod3 »

tylerjl wrote: post #25

Hi, author here. The title is intentionally a little attention-grabbing hyperbole but I've appreciated the discussion and feedback about the post. Thanks for reading!

This is a nit-pick, but if you picked the title that way to BE hyperbolic, I am not sure if that is the best thing to do for a technical discussion. It sets an internal opinion before even clicking on it. It subconsciously makes people go into the article with an already preconceived notion.

Re: Systemd has been a complete, utter, unmitigated success

#64

Post by mrweasel »

akdev1l wrote: post #53
mrweasel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Journald is an odd one. I don't think it being a binary log/database makes sense. If you have a tiny operation, with a single server, then the binary database doesn't really make sense, having plain text is just easier and faster. If you're a bigger operation, you'll have a central logging solution, in which case you need journald to store the longs as plain text as well, before you can do log shipping. The only use…

afaik journald can just forward logs via rsyslog directly to a remote server Why would it need to store plaintext locally?

Doesn't that still involve a conversion? I believe that rsyslog can read the journald database, but you're typically not querying syslog data directly, so there's a conversion between rsyslog and logstash, Splunk, Datalog, whatever.

Re: Systemd has been a complete, utter, unmitigated success

#65

Post by rootnod3 »

jmclnx wrote: post #38

systemd has been a success for 2 groups, Windows admins and Fortune 500 Companies. For UN*X people, all it does is move Linux closer to emulating Microsoft Windows. It has left the UN*X philosophy behind. With secure boot and once Wayland becomes a real thing, the last step is in place. All that will be needed to become a M/S Windows Clone is geo-location and full DRM. That means you will only be able to take screen…

DRM is almost there. Try using Netflix on a *BSD, you can't. The DRM Netflix uses is not supported on BSDs.

Re: Systemd has been a complete, utter, unmitigated success

#66

Post by fsflover »

rootnod3 wrote: post #9

I wouldn’t call it a success it all. Almost managed to do was moving or forcing other software to get locked in. GDM, Podman, Pipewire…just to name a few.

As another comment says, it's a success in the same way Windows has been a success.

Re: Systemd has been a complete, utter, unmitigated success

#67

Post by johnea »

I'm sure it's a success for someone 8-/ Mostly IBM.

It's certainly been a successful takeover of all of the userspace runtime by one giant integrated set of executables.

Pwned off as an init replacement, then feature creeping it's way into every nook of userspace.

For me, it's still a disaster for distro and system s/w independence and the "do one thing well" philosophy.

While many welcome our new system overlords, the s/w is still not liked by many many people...

Move into the void! The DJB way and runit await...

Re: Systemd has been a complete, utter, unmitigated success

#68

Post by mindslight »

thyristan wrote: post #28
haiku2077 wrote: post #11

I've worked as a sysadmin/devops for a double digit number of years. Across companies, jobs, and hobbyist collaborators - I've never met someone who didn't at least like systemd, if not sing its praises. It made so many incredibly painful things about Linux administration disappear.

And made a number of new ones appear. E.g. logging, now that there is journald, you have to pay attention to another hop in your logging chain and take care of journald in addition to rsyslogd. Boot and shutdown has previously been deterministic, now things just randomly hang. You do the "windows solution", reboot again, now it magically works through the power of race conditions that are inherent in systemd's mode o…

> consistent-net.rules nailed it to a mac address on first boot

fails even harder for

> put in a live-CD to debug something and your network devices are suddenly weird

I don't know that there is really any good answer here. Just methods that break in ways you're used to, and methods that break in ways you aren't. I appreciate the attempt at static naming based on hardware connection, even if the realities of how these things are presented by the bios make the results an inscrutable mess.

Maybe pure enx would have been better? But that looks like crap for even the simple cases, and fails if you swap out a piece of hardware or start doing weird things with MAC addresses.

Re: Systemd has been a complete, utter, unmitigated success

#69

Post by pragmatic »

Loonix users: We hate windows

Loonix developers: Now Loonix is windows

Loonix users: booo

… several hours later

Loonix users: yaaaay

/s

I remember running Linux servers for the first time and couldn’t believe there wasn’t a straight forward way to get something to run on startup. Ask glue and duct tape and non portable.

Don’t get me started on the Python situation.

I assume it’s much better now.

With the clown services U hadn’t had to run bare Linux in a long time.

Re: Systemd has been a complete, utter, unmitigated success

#70

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

inetknght wrote: post #17
bcoates wrote: post #14

Does anyone actually use journald? The last time I tried(2 years ago?) it didn't even work with any log management software (like cloudwatch for example). You had to either use some (often abandoned) third party tool or defeat the purpose by just reconfiguring everything to dump a text log to a file.

For debugging my desktop: journalctl --follow --tail --no-trunc -b 0 For anything else: export to a syslog server, which basically any tool that matters will support in some fashion.

journalctl: unrecognized option '--tail'
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