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The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

bbc.com

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Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#61

Post by mkbkn »

wtvanhest wrote: post #40
loeg wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://parentdata.org/honey-botulism-babies/ > Infantile botulism is extremely rare. There are an estimated 100 cases per year in the U.S., among approximately 4 million children in the age range under 1. That’s a risk of 1 in 40,000. This is somewhat less likely than the chance of visiting the ER for a blanket-related injury in a given year (yes, I looked that up, and I do think it’s a good comparison). > ... In an…

I don’t think these probabilities are correct. Every parent is told not to feed their under 1 year olds honey, many times. In an extreme example… only 20 parents fed their kids honey and 20 kids contracted botulism. That would be a 100% risk. Obviously in real life it’s not 100% of kids, but still could be a meaningful percentage and likely higher than 1 in 50,000 for babies that eat honey.

Feeding honey to newborn babies is a common practice in India. Sometimes it's their first ever food.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#62

Post by sl-1 »

repeekad wrote: post #31
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #28

This article is missing what I think is a pretty important PSA on the topic of bacteria in honey: Honey commonly contains small amounts of the anaerobic bacteria Clostridium botulinum, which causes botulism. This is why you should not feed honey to infants, because their immune systems cannot safely handle any amount of it yet. Even though the levels apparently are small enough for the rest of humans to consume worry…

same with immunocompromised folks, though all that only applies to raw honey; pasteurized honey is more common in grocery stores and totally safe

In Finland honey is rarely pasteurized. It is seen as a quality defect if honey is heated after extraction from the hive. Heating is thought to destroy some of the beneficial compounds in honey.

Similarly one should not put honey to too hot tea if one wants the benefits instead of just sugar.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#63

Post by bob1029 »

Jun8 wrote: post #30

Same principle, reducing water activity (aw), is how Nutella keeps fresh for so long without refrigeration: its water activity is even lower than honey. Most bacteria need an aw of around 0.85 to thrive, Nutella’s aw is around 0.4, honey’s around 0.5-0.6. Peanut butter is 0.7, so it stays fresh for relatively long, too. Here’s the definition of water activity from FDA: https://www.fda.gov/inspections-compliance-enfor…

Managing moisture levels is probably the #1 way to control microbial activity.

You see the exact same idea in HVAC - if you can keep the relative humidity below 50%, mold growth becomes nearly impossible.

In laundry care, the dryer does all of the sanitizing action.

Etc.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#64

Post by tharkun__ »

tayo42 wrote: post #50
Analemma_ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that number is meaningful without knowing how many parents are giving their infants honey. Granted I'm in a high-income, high-education area, but at least in my bubble, "don't give babies honey" seems to be common knowledge, so it's possible there are relatively few instances and a high percentage result in complications.

Whole food crunchy Instagram grifters push that infants should eat honey Though tbh do people really eat that much honey? I only have some in my kitchen to have with tea when I have a cold. Other then that I almost never use it.

Breakfast buns go well with honey. Often switched up with jam every few days. Also pancakes and waffles are great with honey from time to time when I'm tired of maple syrup. Jam works too.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#65

Post by LandR »

tekla wrote: post #20
dylan604 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can take honey that has crystalized and set it in sunlight to "melt" back into the gooey goodness, but you can't do that to chocolate that has that white powdery stuff on it.

Bloom isn't spoilage.

Is it eatable though ?

ANytime I've had chocolate that has the white stuff I've binned it. Even if it isn't spoiled, doesn't it taste bad ?

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#66

Post by Peteragain »

bjelkeman-again wrote: post #6

The story misses that lactic acid bacteria are fairly common in honey and seem to be out competing other bacteria and have anti microbial effects. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7949542/

I've recently been embracing the idea of co-evolutionary pressure. Reading the article I thought that if it was just the dryness, bacteria would have evolved to tap such a rich energy source. Hence the biology of bees must have something to do with the preservative nature of honey. I'm feeling vindicated!

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#67

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

>> This doesn't mean that honey can withstand all challenges to freshness. Once a jar of honey is open, its surface is being regularly exposed to the air, and dipping licked spoons in will bring bacteria and moisture that weren't there when the jar was sealed.

I have plenty of observational, empirical data that contradicts this apparently theoretical statement. Not just licked spoons but breakfast knives with bits of toasted bread and peanut/butter, Greek yogurt, French moldy goat's cheese, bits of tart, croisssants or other confectionary, etc. All of those can be detected in significant concentrations in my honey jars. Not to mention that simply screwing a lid on an already-opened jar doesn't quite seal it, certainly not firmly enough to cut off the oxygen from it.

Yet I have never known honey to spoil. I mean it's quite remarkable. I think I have seen honey that has stayed at the bottom of a jar for years and it just doesn't go bad. I wouldn't eat it, because it tends to look a bit bleugh, but it won't go off (and that's how it ends up staying in the jar for so long).

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#68

Post by xandrius »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #67

>> This doesn't mean that honey can withstand all challenges to freshness. Once a jar of honey is open, its surface is being regularly exposed to the air, and dipping licked spoons in will bring bacteria and moisture that weren't there when the jar was sealed. I have plenty of observational, empirical data that contradicts this apparently theoretical statement. Not just licked spoons but breakfast knives with bits of…

Definitely give a little love to your honey jars, it does sound like the relationship is quite one-directional. Even cleaning the spoon/knife before interacting with the jar would increase the long-term stability of the relationship and it's just a nice thing to do for a SO.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#69

Post by mrweasel »

mkbkn wrote: post #61
wtvanhest wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think these probabilities are correct. Every parent is told not to feed their under 1 year olds honey, many times. In an extreme example… only 20 parents fed their kids honey and 20 kids contracted botulism. That would be a 100% risk. Obviously in real life it’s not 100% of kids, but still could be a meaningful percentage and likely higher than 1 in 50,000 for babies that eat honey.

Feeding honey to newborn babies is a common practice in India. Sometimes it's their first ever food.

We waited until our kid was four, just to be safe, but it's was also honey from our own bees, so I somehow felt it less safe.

Kid went full Winnie-the-Pooh on the jar.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#70

Post by xandrius »

Terr_ wrote: post #8
cryptonector wrote: post #2

Really high sugar concentrations will pop the cells of any simple organisms.

I like to imagine it as humans stranded in a strange land where all the geography is dry cake. And only dry cake.

I definitely have been in some countries where their desserts felt from a strange land indeed: everything dried :'(. I need moist.
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