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The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

bbc.com

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Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#31

Post by repeekad »

cypherpunks01 wrote: post #28

This article is missing what I think is a pretty important PSA on the topic of bacteria in honey: Honey commonly contains small amounts of the anaerobic bacteria Clostridium botulinum, which causes botulism. This is why you should not feed honey to infants, because their immune systems cannot safely handle any amount of it yet. Even though the levels apparently are small enough for the rest of humans to consume worry…

same with immunocompromised folks, though all that only applies to raw honey; pasteurized honey is more common in grocery stores and totally safe

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#32

Post by smohare »

__mharrison__ wrote: post #25

Recently went through first aid training and the instructor claimed putting honey on wounds would help them heal faster. (Sample size 1) I tried it on myself and a wound that was stubborn about healing was better very quickly.

[dead]

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#33

Post by carabiner »

__mharrison__ wrote: post #25

Recently went through first aid training and the instructor claimed putting honey on wounds would help them heal faster. (Sample size 1) I tried it on myself and a wound that was stubborn about healing was better very quickly.

Medical grade honey: https://www.uclahealth.org/news/article/medical-grade-honey-...

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#34

Post by owenversteeg »

kragen wrote: post #11

This story can be summarized as "Low water activity and low pH keep honey fresh permanently." The other 14 paragraphs are just filler. Moreover, even that summary is factually incorrect; low water activity and low pH don't come close to explaining honey's astounding shelf life, which amounts to centuries in many cases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey#Preservation in particular mentions gluconic acid and hydrogen…

It'd be fascinating if something like methylglyoxal was responsible, but I doubt it. Molasses also has an extremely long shelf life, and it doesn't have any of honey's exotic constituents. I would bet it mostly comes down to water content and pH (and a sturdy, sealed container.)

Personally, I would bet that certain wines have a longer shelf life than honey. The evidence for honey's stability on extreme time scales is scanty, lots of very poor quality sources and hearsay. Meanwhile, we have countless wines that are hundreds of years old and in excellent shape. It only takes a fairly small amount of degradation of one small component of honey to taste "off", and many of the components of honey are in their non-oxidized, non-heat damaged states. Contrast that with a wine such as Madeira, where the entire wine is intentionally heat-damaged and oxidized to produce the final product. I would put my money on the Madeira any day.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#35

Post by johncole »

cypherpunks01 wrote: post #28

This article is missing what I think is a pretty important PSA on the topic of bacteria in honey: Honey commonly contains small amounts of the anaerobic bacteria Clostridium botulinum, which causes botulism. This is why you should not feed honey to infants, because their immune systems cannot safely handle any amount of it yet. Even though the levels apparently are small enough for the rest of humans to consume worry…

I remember having small kids we took this very seriously. I always wondered if this was just another overprotective order, or could really be an issue.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#36

Post by kragen »

owenversteeg wrote: post #34
kragen wrote: post #11

This story can be summarized as "Low water activity and low pH keep honey fresh permanently." The other 14 paragraphs are just filler. Moreover, even that summary is factually incorrect; low water activity and low pH don't come close to explaining honey's astounding shelf life, which amounts to centuries in many cases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey#Preservation in particular mentions gluconic acid and hydrogen…

It'd be fascinating if something like methylglyoxal was responsible, but I doubt it. Molasses also has an extremely long shelf life, and it doesn't have any of honey's exotic constituents. I would bet it mostly comes down to water content and pH (and a sturdy, sealed container.) Personally, I would bet that certain wines have a longer shelf life than honey. The evidence for honey's stability on extreme time scales is…

Can you make molasses bandages to speed wound healing, though? Honey really seems to have antimicrobial properties that go way beyond just low water activity and low pH, and in particular the peroxide production seems to be important.

It does seem plausible that some wines might last longer than honey.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#37

Post by nullwarp »

__mharrison__ wrote: post #25

Recently went through first aid training and the instructor claimed putting honey on wounds would help them heal faster. (Sample size 1) I tried it on myself and a wound that was stubborn about healing was better very quickly.

I've had great success with using propolis[0] on burns and wounds. Definitely anecdotal but the ones I've used it on have definitely healed faster.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propolis

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#38

Post by owenversteeg »

kragen wrote: post #36
owenversteeg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be fascinating if something like methylglyoxal was responsible, but I doubt it. Molasses also has an extremely long shelf life, and it doesn't have any of honey's exotic constituents. I would bet it mostly comes down to water content and pH (and a sturdy, sealed container.) Personally, I would bet that certain wines have a longer shelf life than honey. The evidence for honey's stability on extreme time scales is…

Can you make molasses bandages to speed wound healing, though? Honey really seems to have antimicrobial properties that go way beyond just low water activity and low pH, and in particular the peroxide production seems to be important. It does seem plausible that some wines might last longer than honey.

After doing some more reading, I think you might be right. I've been looking at various sugary solutions such as molasses and it seems that it's not uncommon for them to be sold with mold inhibitors such as propanoic acid. I suspect the hydrogen peroxide might play a role, but it's not very stable, I wonder how long it lasts in the honey.

I'm still putting my money on the wine as far as long term storage goes, but I think honey might have a solid second place above any other common foods. I've been trying to find others that might last a while but obviously most results these days are contentless slop or straight up fabrications. I did find one report of Irish chef Kevin Thornton trying 4,000 year old butter, unfortunately he described it as "rancid": https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p03yf4kj

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#39

Post by loeg »

johncole wrote: post #35
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #28

This article is missing what I think is a pretty important PSA on the topic of bacteria in honey: Honey commonly contains small amounts of the anaerobic bacteria Clostridium botulinum, which causes botulism. This is why you should not feed honey to infants, because their immune systems cannot safely handle any amount of it yet. Even though the levels apparently are small enough for the rest of humans to consume worry…

I remember having small kids we took this very seriously. I always wondered if this was just another overprotective order, or could really be an issue.

https://parentdata.org/honey-botulism-babies/

> Infantile botulism is extremely rare. There are an estimated 100 cases per year in the U.S., among approximately 4 million children in the age range under 1. That’s a risk of 1 in 40,000. This is somewhat less likely than the chance of visiting the ER for a blanket-related injury in a given year (yes, I looked that up, and I do think it’s a good comparison).

> ... In an estimated 20% of cases — that’s about 20 cases a year — honey is one of the exposures. This doesn’t necessarily mean that the botulism actually came from honey; it’s just that because we know the spores can live in honey … it seems possible.

> At best, this suggests that by avoiding honey, you could lower the risk of infantile botulism from 1 in 40,000 to 1 in 50,000.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#40

Post by wtvanhest »

loeg wrote: post #39
johncole wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember having small kids we took this very seriously. I always wondered if this was just another overprotective order, or could really be an issue.

https://parentdata.org/honey-botulism-babies/ > Infantile botulism is extremely rare. There are an estimated 100 cases per year in the U.S., among approximately 4 million children in the age range under 1. That’s a risk of 1 in 40,000. This is somewhat less likely than the chance of visiting the ER for a blanket-related injury in a given year (yes, I looked that up, and I do think it’s a good comparison). > ... In an…

I don’t think these probabilities are correct. Every parent is told not to feed their under 1 year olds honey, many times.

In an extreme example… only 20 parents fed their kids honey and 20 kids contracted botulism.

That would be a 100% risk. Obviously in real life it’s not 100% of kids, but still could be a meaningful percentage and likely higher than 1 in 50,000 for babies that eat honey.

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