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Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

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Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#61

Post by marcosdumay »

tianqi wrote: post #45

I think the Chinese law is effective in this regard: in order to maintain any non-competition agreement, the company must continue to pay you a monthly compensation amount equal to 30% of your total monthly income when you were at the company. Whenever the payment stops, the non-competition agreement is automatically void.

Or the Brazilian law, that requires 100% compensation, and puts the onus on the company to prove that the non-compete is necessary before it can be enforced.

If you ever see one of those contracts here, it's usually usually for a very reasonable situation and a well paid position.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#62

Post by whiplash451 »

coderatlarge wrote: post #54
tianqi wrote: post #45

I think the Chinese law is effective in this regard: in order to maintain any non-competition agreement, the company must continue to pay you a monthly compensation amount equal to 30% of your total monthly income when you were at the company. Whenever the payment stops, the non-competition agreement is automatically void.

can you choose to refuse these payments to avoid the responsibility?

I’ve seen this is France and UK but it lasts only a few months and no you can’t refuse the payment - but the company can refuse to pay and set you free.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#63

Post by mystified5016 »

coderatlarge wrote: post #59
dakiol wrote: post #34

In some countries that's illegal. So when presented with a contract that contains such claims, I have 2 options: 1) ask them to remove it... and so I risk not getting the job 2) don't say anything, and sign it If I'm really interested in the job, I'll go for option 2 because I know they cannot enforce such claims, so I'll be fine.

i personally consider bad legal clauses in employment contracts a seriously negative sign about the employer. if they’re trying to pull that sort of thing at hiring, what are they going to try to do later when you’re fully committed?? is executive leadership simply unaware or do they condone that sort of thing??

Well, yes. That's how we do business in the USA. It's literally unavoidable unless you can afford to spend a year or three declining offers until you find a unicorn with a sane contract.

Approximately all businesses explictly try to exploit workers to the full extent of the law. That's what capitalism is and it's how we've structured our society.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#64

Post by stego-tech »

TrackerFF wrote: post #30
stego-tech wrote: post #21

Have an employment attorney always look over said agreements before signing. A local acquaintance who did work for an MSP had said MSP try such a ploy, only for the employment attorney to sue and get it thrown out as unreasonable and unenforceable. Never, EVER sign a contract without reading it first, and having your lawyer review it.

I understand that your advice is in good faith - but if we touch grass for a second, only the tiniest fraction of even professional workers have a lawyer at hand. And one that specializes in contract law? Even less.

I understand that your advice is in good faith - but if we touch grass for a second, we can easily find recommendations for employment law attorneys who work at very reasonable rates with fast (sub-1wk) turnaround times.

Because that’s how I found mine. $200 later, and I had total confidence in what I was signing and a lawyer on my side if things went pear-shaped in the future.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#65

Post by stego-tech »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #26
stego-tech wrote: post #21

Have an employment attorney always look over said agreements before signing. A local acquaintance who did work for an MSP had said MSP try such a ploy, only for the employment attorney to sue and get it thrown out as unreasonable and unenforceable. Never, EVER sign a contract without reading it first, and having your lawyer review it.

> your lawyer That presupposes that people have a lawyer, and one specialized in employment law at that, which is highly unlikely to be the case for 99% of the population.

A good employment law lawyer is A) not at all hard to find in major metros, B) charges reasonable rates for quick turnaround times, and C) is something more people need to have on their side in general, rather than elevating them as some snooty thing only the elite have.

This whole “bUt WhO hAs A lAwYeR” nonsense I’m being blasted with in my comments is exactly why these sorts of contracts, grifts, and scams are allowed to exist and succeed.

Know your rights, get a lawyer, and then share that knowledge with others. It’s Organizing 101 stuff.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#66

Post by dylan604 »

senkora wrote: post #39
gwbas1c wrote: post #28

I once declined a job offer because the non-compete made no sense. (It was many pages, claimed that I would be paid during the non-compete period, and impossible to read.) I basically concluded that they (the company) had a lawyer that was basically wanking off.

In finance, it is common to be paid your base wage during your non-compete. Or at least that is how mine worked.

That seems like something ripe for being gamed. How do they protect from someone just quitting and continuing to get paid?

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#67

Post by bufferoverflow »

kirubakaran wrote: post #7

It's funny how states like Washington are notorious for enforceable non-competes, to be "business friendly". Meanwhile California bans non-competes, and its GDP is 4th largest in the world if it were a country! "incumbent friendly" vs "startup friendly"

[dead]

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#68

Post by voidfunc »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #33

OTOH, beware letting yourself be intimidated by scary looking but unenforcable clauses that are all over contracts. In doubt, spend a bit of money on a lawyer to figure out what your real situation is. I know of several cases where lawyers said "don't bother arguing with them about clause X, just sign it and ignore it".

This is pretty much the advice every lawyer has given me in the past. The likelihood of it coming up is very low. Sometimes it's good to not be special.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#69

Post by epolanski »

dakiol wrote: post #34

In some countries that's illegal. So when presented with a contract that contains such claims, I have 2 options: 1) ask them to remove it... and so I risk not getting the job 2) don't say anything, and sign it If I'm really interested in the job, I'll go for option 2 because I know they cannot enforce such claims, so I'll be fine.

The fact that something isn't enforceable does not mean it won't be a giant headache to prove it in a court in a foreign country.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#70

Post by arnonejoe »

btilly wrote: post #16

This is a state level thing. As is whether IP produced outside of your job, on your own equipment, is yours. I moved from New York to California a bit over 20 years ago in large part because I personally encountered this (the IP ownership bit), and preferred to live under California's rules. It is worthwhile to read https://www.paulgraham.com/america.html . Point 7 talks about how easy it is for regulations to accide…

I usually add this at the end of the agreement and if they wont go for it, I move on:

This agreement shall not apply to any inventions, conceptions, discoveries, improvements, and original works of authorship that [my name] developed entirely on their own time without using [the employer](s) equipment, supplies, facilities, trade secret information, or anything not based on or received from [the employer].

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