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Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

theconversation.com

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Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#61
post #28

> Ancient beliefs, behaviors and norms – what archaeologists call culture – were fundamentally integrated into technological solutions in this part of Peru in ancient times. Isolating and removing the tools from that knowledge made them less effective. Ancient beliefs, behaviors and norms may have helped indigenous people perpetuate the solutions/technologies. Studying and understanding those may help people - today…

Exactly - just because they used culture, or religion, to underpin that stuff - doesn’t mean we need to. Doesn’t mean we need to use the same culture, or even the same religion, for that matter. “This is what works, and this is why it works, and this is the benefit, and this is why it’s worthwhile” can be enough, with a minimum of pretense.

We use culture now.

“Culture is just the way things are done around here”

Peer review is culture. Work place legislation is culture.

The article argues that trying to extract technology and reapply it, without the culture, is a fools errand.

It’s trivially true: you can’t just teach some people to code and expect them release an app that can scale to millions of users. It requires culture to function and deliver.

We need to understand the culture required to deliver the technology, not just the technology itself.

I for one would be very interested to hear about how different types of labour organisation were required to deliver their water.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#62
post #31
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the shorter lifespan is that our cities grow much faster. Why build infrastructure that last 200 years if it needs to be ripped up in 50 due to no longer meeting population demands?

When they transported 100% of the output of a spring there’s no need to update the infrared as a city grows there was no way to go past 100%. Dams have the same kind of limits and are regularly designed for 150+ year lifetimes. The Hoover Dam is just about to turn 90 and it’s likely to last another 100 years. Quite a lot of the built environment is designed for 100+ year lifespans. When it isn’t there’s often very go…

This is true. I was thinking of things like roads, water mains, sewer pipes, and even homes.

Yeah a house that lasts 200 years sounds good in principle, until you think about the kind of material and energy efficiency advances we’ve had in just the last 25.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#63
post #37
post #9

The inca aqueduct network is seriously impressive even in the current age. Some of it almost a thousand years old and still transporting spring water miles with no pumps, without a civilization to maintain it.

IDK if it was inka but I was in a town called Ollataytombo or something like that for a week and they had this adorable little aqueduct that ran straight through town and people washed their clothes and whatnot in it. Loved how a lot of those mountain towns had them.

Yeah Ollantaytambo was Inca. They say it was constructed as a vacation estate for Pachacutec (?) after he conquered the Sacred Valley.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would your neighbors worry about rain, unless they are farmers or otherwise directly impacted? We've generally abandoned "being in touch with nature" for focusing on specific niches, and it's so incredibly more efficient that you can have large groups of people who focus on systems based on purely made up things, like sports. If they both needed the probability of rain three days from now, who do you think would…

Oooh yes let’s be efficient. Only thing that’s important. No curiosity, sense of awe or belonging to something greater. Let’s do away with art unless it’s funded by Netflix and has a direct effect on subscription numbers. We could and should have both.

> We could and should have both.

Sure, but one is much more important than the other. You can commit 50% of your resources as a society towards art and religion and the other half to science and production, and your standard of living will be much lower than if you committed 10% towards art and religion.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#65
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you study this stuff in the americas it’s depressing as the Spanish in particular slaughtered people and culture so completely and unimpeded for so long. The evil and barbarism of this colonial episode is difficult to fathom. The 20th century horror show of slaughter ran in relatively short episodes… this imperial era ran for hundreds of years. Because you’re left with archeological evidence, whose interpretation…

but then why romanticise what was destroyed ? Why not go at the world with a realistic view, which is that the "new world" was exactly the same as the old with dominant landempires holding colonies and tributories, aristocrats holding slaves, that where the landbound spaniards to their neighbors. Just because they have been genocided into a blank slate and you rightfully despise the acts of the genociders, does not m…

As bad as the Spaniards were, the Aztec's neighbors despised the Aztecs and their brutality so much that they willingly and gladly allied with the first viable challenger to their rule.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oooh yes let’s be efficient. Only thing that’s important. No curiosity, sense of awe or belonging to something greater. Let’s do away with art unless it’s funded by Netflix and has a direct effect on subscription numbers. We could and should have both.

> We could and should have both. Sure, but one is much more important than the other. You can commit 50% of your resources as a society towards art and religion and the other half to science and production, and your standard of living will be much lower than if you committed 10% towards art and religion.

Define standard of living

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#68
post #9

The inca aqueduct network is seriously impressive even in the current age. Some of it almost a thousand years old and still transporting spring water miles with no pumps, without a civilization to maintain it.

Meanwhile the average lifetime of modern infrastructure is what, 50 years ?

Modern concrete could last as long ad Roman concrete, if not for the fact that we use rebar which inevitability corrodes and is the limiting factor in how long those structures can last. But that same rebar allows us to create structures that the Romans never could have. Concrete structures with huge spans and thin walls.

It's not that we don't know how to build things which last long. Rather, we choose not to because building that way has tradeoffs we usually don't want to make. This is also the reason we make things out of concrete and rarely out of meticulously stacked rocks.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#69
post #9

The inca aqueduct network is seriously impressive even in the current age. Some of it almost a thousand years old and still transporting spring water miles with no pumps, without a civilization to maintain it.

Meanwhile the average lifetime of modern infrastructure is what, 50 years ?

Some of the water mains that bring water to New York City, from Upstate, are probably 200 years old.

Many of them are made from wood.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#70
post #9

The inca aqueduct network is seriously impressive even in the current age. Some of it almost a thousand years old and still transporting spring water miles with no pumps, without a civilization to maintain it.

How doesn’t it just immediately become overgrown with vegetation?

By having constant flow like a river, they didn't go on and off like modern pipes.
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