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Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#61

Post by 1over137 »

EA-3167 wrote: post #44
jfengel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, though the problem predates the cars. At the time cars were seen as a huge win over the vast piles of horse poop. Cities do need to be reconsidered for more public transit and more opportunities to walk, but other issues (delivery, emergency, disability, etc) have to figure in.

Not just horse poop, but dead horses that were quite the chore to remove back in the day, and the danger posed to pedestrians by a bunch of quite large and easily panicked animals.

We still have that danger. But the animals are homo sapiens and they are surrounded by 2 tonnes of metal. :)

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#62

Post by netsharc »

usrusr wrote: post #36
azinman2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder if anyone is working on ways for breaks and tires to be less harmful, or polluting?

Lighter cars, really, that's it. Make vehicles that match the transportation case in question instead of palaces on wheels that carry battery sized for solving some once in a year use case. And/or make them go slower.

Huh, imagine EVs that have removable add-on batteries that you'd only plug in for the longer trips..

Like the Thinkpads with the "bigger battery" humps: https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_ap/photo/l/lenovo-thi/lenovo-th...

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#63

Post by stavros »

pama wrote: post #45
mjevans wrote: post #7

"Ban all the cars" does have noticeable effects. I wonder if something less all / none might have nearly the same effects with far less drawbacks otherwise. E.G. What if only emissions testing certified low emission vehicles were allowed? What if only electric? How about requiring quiet utility trucks for garbage / freight / etc? For cities that large / dense, adding in Caves of Steel like people-mover belts might be…

In modern cars, including EV, polution and noise come from weight and tires and breaks; the polution levels are a sharp funxtion of speed, but the speeds at which they dont matter much, dont offer benefits either. If we had magnetic/levitated cars maybe some simple solution could be found, but with the current designs where the tires hit the asphalt it seems hard to make things environmentally friendly in a city othe…

This is a bad-faith fallacy. We had cars that emitted X amounts of tyre/brake particulate and 10X amounts of combustion residue, we got rid of the combustion part, and now we hear "OMG! 100% is tyre particulate!!!"

Sure, but people won't stop moving, and there's no vacuum, you should compare brake particulate to whatever else people would use if cars didn't exist.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#64

Post by trollbridge »

dmckeon wrote: post #27
azinman2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder if anyone is working on ways for breaks and tires to be less harmful, or polluting?

Regenerative braking would tend to reduce particulates from friction braking.

But spews forth more rubber (and plastic, since that's what tyres are made from these days), which is an ongoing problem for Tesla EVs when owners discover their tyres don't last nearly as long because they're transmitting power both when starting and stopping, not just when starting.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#65

Post by oblio »

NightMKoder wrote: post #29
azinman2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder if anyone is working on ways for breaks and tires to be less harmful, or polluting?

I don’t know about tires, but for brakes we already know how to make lower dust brakes - use drum brakes instead of disc brakes. The friction material is enclosed on drum brakes so much less of it just flies away.

Can drum brakes be used for all kinds of vehicles?

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#66

Post by wffurr »

mjevans wrote: post #7

"Ban all the cars" does have noticeable effects. I wonder if something less all / none might have nearly the same effects with far less drawbacks otherwise. E.G. What if only emissions testing certified low emission vehicles were allowed? What if only electric? How about requiring quiet utility trucks for garbage / freight / etc? For cities that large / dense, adding in Caves of Steel like people-mover belts might be…

Compare with the ULEV zone in other cities and control for other differences. You could possibly even publish that as a research paper!

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#67

Post by stavros »

10-1-100 wrote: post #18
mjevans wrote: post #7

"Ban all the cars" does have noticeable effects. I wonder if something less all / none might have nearly the same effects with far less drawbacks otherwise. E.G. What if only emissions testing certified low emission vehicles were allowed? What if only electric? How about requiring quiet utility trucks for garbage / freight / etc? For cities that large / dense, adding in Caves of Steel like people-mover belts might be…

With modern emissions standards, more than 50% of the harmful pollution comes from tires/brakes/road surface wear/resuspended dust: https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/non-exhaust-particulate... Moving away from privately owned cars entirely seems to be the only way to eliminate the health impact of cars on people in a city.

Are publicly-owned cars somehow not emitting anything? Or, how else will people get around?

I live in a European city, where I rarely use my car to get around. Banning cars won't do anything, because I don't use my car because I can, I use it because I have to.

If you want to get rid of cars, design cities that can be lived in without having to use cars.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#68

Post by SequoiaHope »

ethagknight wrote: post #34
10-1-100 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also worth noting that with modern emissions standards (and transition to EVs), over 50% of handful particulates come from tires, brakes, road surface wear, and resuspended dust: https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/non-exhaust-particulate... I don't think there's any healthy level of private cars coexisting with humans in a city, without even considering the more immediate harms from crashes, etc.

I flipped through the summary of that report, and I would think there is almost surely no way this is true, unless focusing on worst case assumptions like aggressive driving styles and very poorly maintained vehicles. Your conclusion that there is not “any healthy level of private cars coexisting” is heavy handed. There is a balance, but I suspect it’s more of a jealousy/equality issue. Heavily taxed and high quality…

If EVs don’t emit tailpipe emissions then 100% of their emissions will be those things. They’re also heavier and so have more tire wear. It seems not unintuitive to me that their emissions might push the boundaries of strict modern emissions standards.

For taxing cars, you’re still leaving so much car infrastructure out there. It swallows the world. Six months ago for the first time ever I got a job where I could bike to work. The world is so much different from a bike. It becomes clear how dangerous cars are to humans, and how they chop up our cities in to little rectangles. I’m constantly at risk of being hit by cars that don’t stop. I love being on my bike. I feel like I’m part of the world. I ride rain or shine thanks to nice gear. We give up so much to have a world with cars. We could move our road budgets to trains and bike paths and have so much more space and health and life.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#69

Post by thrance »

mjevans wrote: post #7

"Ban all the cars" does have noticeable effects. I wonder if something less all / none might have nearly the same effects with far less drawbacks otherwise. E.G. What if only emissions testing certified low emission vehicles were allowed? What if only electric? How about requiring quiet utility trucks for garbage / freight / etc? For cities that large / dense, adding in Caves of Steel like people-mover belts might be…

I live in Paris, cars haven't all been banned. Some streets have been made pedestrians only and some lanes have been converted into bike lanes, but overall you can drive almost everywhere in the city (although that was always painful).

We have that certificate you mention. Today in most large cities in France, some streets are forbidden to cars that have a bad "Crit'air" score. It's a sticker you have to order online, with a number from 1 to 6. What number you receive is dependent on your car's model and its age. You have to put it under your windshield or risk getting fined by the police.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#70

Post by lotsofpulp »

trollbridge wrote: post #64
dmckeon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regenerative braking would tend to reduce particulates from friction braking.

But spews forth more rubber (and plastic, since that's what tyres are made from these days), which is an ongoing problem for Tesla EVs when owners discover their tyres don't last nearly as long because they're transmitting power both when starting and stopping, not just when starting.

I don’t understand this concept. I would expect an ICE and an EV vehicle with the same weight, speed, deceleration, tires, etc to have the same wear on tires. The difference being the energy to stop an ICE being transferred to the brake pads and rotors, rather than recharging the EV’s battery.

What am I missing? Why wouldn’t the tires experience the same forces in both scenarios?

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