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Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

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Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#61

Post by nradov »

reaperman wrote: post #20

Does anyone have the flight path for the helicopter? (Tail number PAT25). FlightAware doesn't show it but it might have been tracked by open source ADS-B receivers. This helicopter was often utilized for VIP transport.

PAT25 would be a temporary military flight call sign, not a tail number. US military aircraft don't have FAA "N" registration numbers like civilian aircraft do. Military aircraft do have official numbers but those aren't used for ATC or radio communications.

In this particular case it appears that the "PAT" part is an acronym for Priority Air Travel. In other words, it was a VIP transport flight (there may not have been any VIPs actually on board at the time).

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#62

Post by stall84 »

In any event, unless the weather was IMC, where neither aircraft can see because of weather/cloud, which I'm deducing is not the case if they were allowed to maintain visual separation, the ultimate responsibility for maintaining separation is with the pilot(s) .. But as I posted, we should not have this happen anywhere in the United States in 2025 & much less the nation's capital. Hopefully DOT and FAA get to work, but I have a feeling that will be the end of DCA's usefull life as a major passenger airport.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#63

Post by jonlong »

unsnap_biceps wrote: post #16
readthenotes1 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you listen to the ATC recording, around 15:50, they instruct the helicopter to watch for traffic, specifically this flight, and clears them for virtual separation. It's the helo's fault. They likely misjudged the plane due to assuming it was a large jet but it was a regional jet, so it was way closer than they thought it was. It's a tragedy, but I don't see how it would be ATC's fault. But that's just my 2 cents.

> They likely misjudged the plane due to assuming it was a large jet but it was a regional jet

Maybe this is possible, but it seems implausible given that ATC explicitly refers to the jet as a "CRJ".

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#64

Post by droopyEyelids »

jonathanlb wrote: post #33
joezydeco wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, San Carlos Airport (KSQL, near San Francisco) is going ATC-zero on February 1st. The tower will be unstaffed. https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/CASMATEO/bulletins/... "The FAA has awarded a new contract for air traffic services at SQL to Robinson Aviation (RVA). However, the contract does not include locality pay to account for the high cost of living in the San Francisco Bay Area. As a result, RVA’…

Honest question: are air traffic controllers at risk for being replaced with AI systems? My initial thought is no, there is too much complexity, but AI could help ease the load. I'm not really informed about air traffic systems, just curious.

What kind of ai are you talking about? The non deterministic black box LLMs we have now?

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#65

Post by hindsightbias »

I believe the Marine aviation unit supporting the WH operates from the navy base east across from DCA. You can watch them training from the terminal.

Not sure how they or the Army transition the approach ends to the runways, but it’s really close.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#66

Post by unsnap_biceps »

derektank wrote: post #58
unsnap_biceps wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulations are written in blood, which is why it's such a disservice to indiscriminately tear it all down. We will re-learn the same lessons and people will pay for those lessons with their lives.

Some regulations are written and blood but some regulations are written to cover someone's ass and the two should not be treated equally. We shouldn't give equal respect to the Federal Aviation Regulations and to OPM's Qualification Standards for Federal Jobs; doing so deligitamizes the importance of the former.

That's entirely true. Thank you for the correction. I spoke overly broadly.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#67

Post by anigbrowl »

unsnap_biceps wrote: post #16
readthenotes1 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you listen to the ATC recording, around 15:50, they instruct the helicopter to watch for traffic, specifically this flight, and clears them for virtual separation. It's the helo's fault. They likely misjudged the plane due to assuming it was a large jet but it was a regional jet, so it was way closer than they thought it was. It's a tragedy, but I don't see how it would be ATC's fault. But that's just my 2 cents.

That's the best theory I've seen so far, but it's still really really bad.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#68

Post by dboreham »

twoparachute45 wrote: post #28
reaperman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[2] shows the helicopter taking off 2 miles away from the old saudi embassy in McLean marked “permanently closed” on google maps. (The current embassy is in DC proper, directly across the river from DCA airport) I don’t think thats strong evidence that it took off from the old Saudi Embassy - thats pretty far away even given your caveat about accuracy. Edit: it looks to me like the black hawk was coming from somewher…

I didn't say it took off from the old embassy. The flight track starts at the backyard of a house that is currently owned by the embassy. You can see the owner of that property by searching that address here (the site doesn't support a direct link): https://icare.fairfaxcounty.gov/ffxcare/search/commonsearch....

That house doesn't seem to have enough clearance vs the trees to land a helo. Note that Langley (CIA) is nearby.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#69

Post by bsder »

bryant wrote: post #27

Not that being near DC affords me any kind of right to an opinion, but: Given the uptick in near miss incidents across the US the last few years, this is the kind of incident that should've been entirely avoidable through changes in policy from these past events but is also apparently the only kind that can spur along policy changes. I can see a world where the fault is on the VH-60, but absent more information, it w…

Reagan should have been shut down for commercial use many moons ago.

It will never be shut down because it's got all the exceptions so that Congresscritters don't have to be treated the same as us plebians.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#70

Post by pbronez »

lysace wrote: post #6

A CRJ700 crashing into a Black Hawk sounds bad . :/ FR24 shows helicopters from various agencies doing many laps around the site, presumably looking for survivors. https://i.imgur.com/SykzxUA.png

On the ATC radio archive you can hear the tower asking aircraft if they have lights, can the circle over the east side of the field to help locate survivors
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