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Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

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Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#31

Post by Jtsummers »

ghc wrote: post #10
nradov wrote: post #7

Obviously it will take some time for the full accident analysis but there have been quite a few near misses lately due to air traffic controller errors. Flight volume has been growing, airspace near airports is more congested, and controllers are overworked. Eventually all of the "Swiss cheese" holes line up. We're going to need to hire more controllers. Also, it appears that one of the aircraft was a military (not p…

> In addition, the White House has put a hiring freeze in place, prohibiting the replacement of open government positions or the creation of new ones while the administration evaluates reductions in the workforce. The White House plans to release a memorandum with further guidance within 90 days. This has drawn criticism from lawmakers as the FAA has been ramping up controller hiring. https://www.ainonline.com/aviati…

In fairness to the current administration, while the hiring freeze may have impacted ATC hiring, that is not causal here. No one hired last week would have been running things today (if they were hit with the freeze).

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#32

Post by whycome »

drcode wrote: post #13
ceejayoz wrote: post #8

Damn. We’ve avoided a US airliner having a fatal crash since 2009.

It's a crazy accomplishment really, unimaginable how safe US commercial airplanes have been in the last two decades So sad that streak finally ended

There have been incidents that were just saved by luck (eg losing door in flight). And Too many near misses.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#33

Post by jonathanlb »

joezydeco wrote: post #29
ghc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In addition, the White House has put a hiring freeze in place, prohibiting the replacement of open government positions or the creation of new ones while the administration evaluates reductions in the workforce. The White House plans to release a memorandum with further guidance within 90 days. This has drawn criticism from lawmakers as the FAA has been ramping up controller hiring. https://www.ainonline.com/aviati…

Meanwhile, San Carlos Airport (KSQL, near San Francisco) is going ATC-zero on February 1st. The tower will be unstaffed. https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/CASMATEO/bulletins/... "The FAA has awarded a new contract for air traffic services at SQL to Robinson Aviation (RVA). However, the contract does not include locality pay to account for the high cost of living in the San Francisco Bay Area. As a result, RVA’…

Honest question: are air traffic controllers at risk for being replaced with AI systems? My initial thought is no, there is too much complexity, but AI could help ease the load. I'm not really informed about air traffic systems, just curious.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#34

Post by unsnap_biceps »

thallada wrote: post #23
unsnap_biceps wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you listen to the ATC recording, around 15:50, they instruct the helicopter to watch for traffic, specifically this flight, and clears them for virtual separation. It's the helo's fault. They likely misjudged the plane due to assuming it was a large jet but it was a regional jet, so it was way closer than they thought it was. It's a tragedy, but I don't see how it would be ATC's fault. But that's just my 2 cents.

Do you have a link to the recording?

It's linked in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42874330 the liveatc link

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#35

Post by reaperman »

twoparachute45 wrote: post #28
reaperman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[2] shows the helicopter taking off 2 miles away from the old saudi embassy in McLean marked “permanently closed” on google maps. (The current embassy is in DC proper, directly across the river from DCA airport) I don’t think thats strong evidence that it took off from the old Saudi Embassy - thats pretty far away even given your caveat about accuracy. Edit: it looks to me like the black hawk was coming from somewher…

I didn't say it took off from the old embassy. The flight track starts at the backyard of a house that is currently owned by the embassy. You can see the owner of that property by searching that address here (the site doesn't support a direct link): https://icare.fairfaxcounty.gov/ffxcare/search/commonsearch....

Thank you!

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#36

Post by unsnap_biceps »

bryant wrote: post #27

Not that being near DC affords me any kind of right to an opinion, but: Given the uptick in near miss incidents across the US the last few years, this is the kind of incident that should've been entirely avoidable through changes in policy from these past events but is also apparently the only kind that can spur along policy changes. I can see a world where the fault is on the VH-60, but absent more information, it w…

Regulations are written in blood, which is why it's such a disservice to indiscriminately tear it all down. We will re-learn the same lessons and people will pay for those lessons with their lives.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#37

Post by sib301 »

I just listened to the ATC recording from immediately before the collision. ATC instructs the helicopter to pass behind the CRJ. I’m fairly certain a few minutes before that, ATC instructed the helicopter to maintain visual separation, which is common. They typically ask, “do you have the aircraft in sight” and if you respond in the affirmative they rely on you to maintain safe distance.

I should mention that in the recording you can only hear one side of the conversation, so I don’t know whether or not the helicopter said whether or not they had visual contact with the plane they collided with.

Either way it doesn’t seem to be the fault of ATC. Of course we’ll know more as additional information becomes available.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#38

Post by whycome »

deadbabe wrote: post #14

Gruesome, in a crash like this, if there were any survivors from the impact, the water would likely have finished them off.

If they can get out, they have a chance. There was a crash on the Potomac in January 1982 and there were several survivors. The video of the rescue is pretty crazy.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/from-the-archives-h...

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#39

Post by twoparachute45 »

reaperman wrote: post #35
twoparachute45 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say it took off from the old embassy. The flight track starts at the backyard of a house that is currently owned by the embassy. You can see the owner of that property by searching that address here (the site doesn't support a direct link): https://icare.fairfaxcounty.gov/ffxcare/search/commonsearch....

Thank you!

Regarding your edit: that's a good point, but the vertical ascent rate of the chopper at those first few data points shows 400-800 feet per minute, which is consistent with a chopper taking off...'

edit: your second edit makes me think you're right though, tonight's flight track was pretty consistent with the past flight track where it looks like it both took off from and landed at Fort Belvoir.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#40

Post by jetpackjoe »

reaperman wrote: post #25
twoparachute45 wrote: post #19

It wasn't a police chopper, it was a military VH-60, also known as a "White Hawk" [1]. It's a VIP transport helicopter, the same type that is used to transport the president. ~The flight track of the helicopter [2] starts at a property in McLean, VA (edited to remove likely inaccurate info)~ The chopper was based out of Fort Belvoir, and based on similar past flight tracks, looks like it probably took off from there…

[2] shows the helicopter taking off 2 miles away from the old saudi embassy in McLean marked “permanently closed” on google maps. (The current embassy is in DC proper, directly across the river from DCA airport) I don’t think thats strong evidence that it took off from the old Saudi Embassy - thats pretty far away even given your caveat about accuracy. Edit: it looks to me like the black hawk was coming from somewher…

CNN is reporting the helicopter came from Fort Belvoir.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/plane-crash-dca-potomac-was...

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