I'm not familiar with the specifics of ARM devices. Why couldn't one come later and install Linux+variant of Grub to detect the MBR after the Windows install?
Simply because UEFI will refuse to boot to anything other than Windows
Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices
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Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Windows already had no advantage - all programs would need to be rebuilt for the new platform. That's what killed Windows NT on everything non-x86. The only apps that will be cross-platform will be WinRT/Metro based ones.
Metro is a set of UI guidelines, not a set of programming tools. Applications built using the Silverlight Framework (not to be confused with the browser plugin) should be suitable for cross platform development because CLR runs on both platforms. CLR remains Microsoft's way of integrating the "write once, run anywhere" philosophy within the Windows ecosystem in order to deal with legacy issues.
Thanks. This whole stack is very confusing to me these days (I once was a Windows developer, one of the first MCPs in Brazil, but that was another life, a very long time ago).
And Android, iOS and OSX are all waiting in line for my attention before I consider learning modern Windows development again. I sincerely hope that, if I wait long enough, I won't need to ;-)
Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, they are not computers any more than my clock is a computer. Yes, deep within there is a multipurpose chip that performs the calculations but that is abstracted away. Just as your car isn't a computer, it has multiple computers that aid it but it is not a computer and you have no real interface with the computer itself. Just as my clock, just as my phone, just as my fridge. I appreciate the security value of secu…
People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decid…
You contradict yourself a little bit. If you decide your PC is a heater, well, then it is one!
It is commercially unviable to sell it to someone third as that, but if you managed that feat, it would be a bit strange if this person then came to you: "You sold me this electric heater, but I looked into it and it is warmed by an especially hot Intel CPU. So I decided it is a PC and despite you are being in the heater-selling-business I want you to not void my warranty when I reflash the firmware so I can install Windows XP to play Solitaire in long cold winter nights."
Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices
#64Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices
#65My speculation is that they are doing this so that they can offer subsidies on the hardware.
Seems possible that there could be 2 options, a Windows option and an unlocked option. You'd think the Windows option would be more expensive. How many vendors are really set up for that?
Windows really took off because of this practice. Vendors would license it based upon total PCs sold, regardless of if they even had windows installed or the customers wanted it. It was so effective that the competition dried up and died in a remarkably short time. This was competition from IBM, you could lump some others in with it BeOS and maybe some early Linux but Big Blue had their ass handed to them which was remarkable. At the time there are a lot more (maybe, maybe not, it seemed like there were a lot more) tier 2 type vendors: name companies with support and such.
I'd argue MS doesn't know how to build market share other than with subsidies or lock-ins and that's what this is. If devs don't pick up Win8 pretty quickly, that ARM tablet isn't going to look so great, why wouldn't you want to try Android with its piles of apps? Then it puts the vendors in a very interesting bind, you have to pick which platform to support, a market leader (Android) or a product from a market leader in a different market. I don't remember the results of the anti-trust but I could see how this is designed to do the same thing but is different enough.
A handful of motherboards now come with 2 BIOS, I think I have an Asus mb with one that you can "tweak" and overclock and then like a failsafe backup. Something like that, maybe with a hardware jumper setting seems like the real solution for your vendors, but that adds some cost. Either that or Win8 just flops, industry wide, that seems like it might be the better solution. There will be win8 tablets at Walmart and Target and such though and million of less technical folks will buy them. I suspect dual boot is dead forever unless someone certifies some sort of kexec like application.
Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices
#66The quotations say nothing of the sort. A vendor could provide a dual-boot device providing they have an Android bootloader signed with Microsoft's signing key, which is a service that Microsoft will be providing.
A more open question is whether any of the existing Linux vendors will be doing this. Fedora is willing to use Microsoft's signing service for x86 because users will be able to disable the feature or enrol their own keys. We're not willing to do that for ARM because users won't have that freedom and so wouldn't be able to replace components like the kernel.
Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decid…
Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you…
You absolutely can run Linux on a router.
Smartphones and tablets are more powerful than any PC 15-20 years ago. Were those just appliances too?
I think you're trying to justify anti-competitive behavior by making a distinction where there isn't one.
Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
I strongly disagree. >> "These devices are not multipurpose devices". These devices have chips which can run any algorithm you write. They are not hammers, or even calculators. They are computers. They also have GPS, motion sensors, cameras, and microphones. They are multipurpose enough to make phone calls, play games, run maps, and even power satellites: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/main/spheres_smart..…
No, they are not computers any more than my clock is a computer. Yes, deep within there is a multipurpose chip that performs the calculations but that is abstracted away. Just as your car isn't a computer, it has multiple computers that aid it but it is not a computer and you have no real interface with the computer itself. Just as my clock, just as my phone, just as my fridge. I appreciate the security value of secu…
>> Oh, but you wanted a computer? Then buy a computer!
My long-term concern is that this will no longer be possible.
Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decid…
Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you…
All of the devices you mentioned -- Android device, PS3, and router -- are all computers. They are general purpose machines that are programmed for a certain set of tasks. The kinds of devices you mention can all be reprogrammed and are actively reprogrammed by people, sometimes for a similar purpose that they already performed and sometimes for completely different purposes.
Just because I buy a device from Manufacturer X does not mean that said device is and only can be what the manufacturer intended. When I own a device, I have the freedom to tinker with that device, including making that device do something it was never intended to do. That is what I as a hacker love about computing machines: they are what I make them when I reprogram them.
Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decid…
Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you…
Most probably you can run linux on your router.
See
https://openwrt.org/
http://www.dd-wrt.com