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Dragonfly: An optical telescope built from an array of off-the-shelf Canon lens

dunlap.utoronto.ca

61–70 of 82 posts

Re: Dragonfly: An optical telescope built from an array of off-the-shelf Canon lens

#63
post #50
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Here's a mirror, Ah! So there's a large mirror involved? (sorry)

No, just the camera lenses and sensors for each lens. I am wondering if they just "stack" the images or if there is something more involved.

Whoosh

Re: Dragonfly: An optical telescope built from an array of off-the-shelf Canon lens

#64
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of much cheaper telescopes in that 6" aperture range. My 152mm was only $1k. My polar mount was $1500. Even adding in a tracking scope/camera to attach is still a fraction of the price of single lens. Tack on a similar SBIG dedicated astro camera and cheap laptop to run the guiding and imaging would still come in under that price tag. So, is there an advantage of having all of the lenses on the same…

From what I understand, reconstructing images from virtual telescopes requires extremely accurate timing so all the wavefronts are in phase: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_synthesis

Yes, but that’s not what they’re trying to do.

Re: Dragonfly: An optical telescope built from an array of off-the-shelf Canon lens

#65

Can someone smarter than me explain why astronmers can't stick something like this on the back of an existing geostationary platform (like what is used for the XM radio sattelites) and get amazing data out of them? Surely sticking something like this array 100km into space will yield better results without the overhead of a 20 year mission plan like James Webb or Hubble.

There are... nine main limitations on telescope imagery that I can think of. In no particular order:

First is weather. We can't see through clouds. Most new astronomy is about sources too faint to have been analyzed a hundred years ago, and even clouds that are barely visible to the human eye will drown those out.

Second is various engineering difficulties resulting from differential temperatures in the air in close proximity to the telescope dome, defects in the mirror surface, and limitations to the optical design (you're projecting a spherical globe onto a flat surface).

Third is 'atmospheric seeing' - high-order distortions caused by thermal patterns in the air which change significantly on a tens of milliseconds timescale, ultimately leading to a gaussian blur of the light in long exposures. The lower your altitude, and the more disturbed the airmass, and the more humid this is, the worse this is.

Fourth is sky glow - light pollution from nearby upwards facing lightbulbs, from the full moon, and from the sun at twilight & in the daytime

Fifth is the diffraction limit. A perfectly engineered, spherical-cow-world telescope with a perfect sensor has fundamental optical limits to the resolution it can observe, and optical resolution in arc seconds scales with wavelength / aperture.

Sixth is bright-source confusion and the limitations of your background field. It's very difficult with CCD & CMOS sensors (and even with spherical-cow sensors, the optics present limitations) to image a faint thing next to a bright thing. This is why we have fewer galaxies mapped on the other side of the Milky Way,, and why it can be very difficult to pick up, say, a nebula right next to a bright nearby star

Seventh is light-gathering ability, thermal noise, and readout noise. If you're trying to capture a photon every second, it's going to be very difficult if your CCD is absorbing thousands of photons per second thermally from the surrounding blackbody radiation and the readout circuitry.

Eighth is differential focus. To make matters more complicated, optical resolution is not 'fixed' because focus is not identical in different parts of the iamger; Typically telescopes are optimized for nominal focus at the center of their field, but get a few arc-minutes off of the center and optical resolution goes down. Get a few degrees off and it can go down to un-usability. There are characteristic abberations that crop up, and every optical design that aims for wide fields is a compromise between these abberations.

Ninth is atmospheric windows. Atmosphere absorbs hard UV. And portions of infrared. And portions of radio. To get a full spectrograph of a source, to detect the exotic portions of the EM spectrum that we don't really deal with frequently, you can't do it through atmosphere.

Generally speaking, it's relatively easy with on Earth for professional observatories to reach a point where atmospheric seeing limits your observations more than diffraction or readout noise or field distortions or sky glow or ambient light. It's not easy to defeat bright-source confusion with a larger and larger telescope. Many astronomers have had to content themselves with knowing little about the sky right next to bright sources like nearby stars. The telescope in the article tries to probe this known unknown with numerous small low-res cameras.

Space observatories provide us a small amount (10x?) better surveys because of no sky glow, daytime observations, no weather, etc. They eliminate atmospheric windows and simplify some engineering issues (while complicating others).

Part of the big remaining purpose of space observatories, the thing it's very difficult to do on the ground (we've tried!) is to defeat the atmospheric seeing limit and allow us to use very large telescopes which are relatively simply designed. Light-gathering ability from a source scales with aperture^2, and light-concentrating ability scales with aperture^2, so ideally sensitivity to sources should scale with aperture^4. It rarely does on the ground, because we have to put up with atmospheric seeing. The technologies we've used on the ground to fight atmospheric seeing are extremely limiting, expensive, complex, the subject of an inane number of PhD theses, and only suitable for very small fields.

This goal of survey astronomy is at cross purposes to the telescopes in the article, which aim to get diffuse low resolution impressions of the light near bright objects, defeating problem number 6; They can do this with relatively short exposures over hundreds of sensors, so that none of the electron wells in the sensors ever saturate from being full of too much light and spill over into their neighboring electron wells

Re: Dragonfly: An optical telescope built from an array of off-the-shelf Canon lens

#66
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took me a while to understand what you meant. A phone camera already is millions of smaller detectors .... But I think you mean coordinating millions of people to all take photos of the same direction in the sky and then combining all the photos? I'm sure it can be done with an app and a way to build that crowd of users! But the field of view will still be huge because they're not telescopes/telephoto lenses.

Yeah, modern phones use multiple cameras to produce a single image. Would it be possible to produce a higher resolution photo using millions of images taken from millions of locations? I have no clue what I am talking about, but would love to hear somebody knowledgeable speculate on this.

For laughs I one time combine frames from some really old footage. I upscale the frames so that each pixel becomes a cube of same color pixels. Then I stack them and shift them to line up properly. The resolution goes up and more detail is revealed. Not sure what the limit is of that approach but if there is only one frame that has them you can remove it's grain and correct bends (wobbles? distortions? wrinkles? waves? what is the word?)

Re: Dragonfly: An optical telescope built from an array of off-the-shelf Canon lens

#67
post #38

Unfortunately their website is not built from a large, redundant array of off-the-shelf server parts. Here's a mirror, https://web.archive.org/web/20240507234024/https://www.dunla...

>Here's a mirror, Ah! So there's a large mirror involved? (sorry)

[dead]

Re: Dragonfly: An optical telescope built from an array of off-the-shelf Canon lens

#68
post #61

How does this relate to interferometry? I do not think they are keeping waveforms or timing or anything (except taking the pictures at about the sames time. Are they just stacking images?

Essentially. It's better than conventional stacking because they are taken through different lenses, so any lens flares/distortions/reflections etc in each camera should get averaged away by the others.

Re: Dragonfly: An optical telescope built from an array of off-the-shelf Canon lens

#69
post #37

Question: why is, saying having 100 different lenses simultaneously take images, rather than just a single one taking 100 sequential images, and then using something like registax to combine them?

I think you always want to take many pictures (significantly more than 100, it mentions a 10h integration time, which I think means taking photos for 10 hours in a row?), so if you take them 100x slower it will both take much longer, and there will be more drift in that time to account for.

Re: Dragonfly: An optical telescope built from an array of off-the-shelf Canon lens

#70

This kind of a setup of a large number of small, cheap detectors works well for observing diffuse objects with low surface brightness. Generally speaking telescopes improve with size because larger telescopes can resolve smaller objects, so you can concentrate the light from your source into a smaller patch and increase the signal-to-noise with respect to the background. But once you have resolved the object (which d…

It’s interesting that technically an individual camera’s sensor is itself an array of smaller sensors that capture individual pixels. So you have like a tree of arrays

Maybe we can keep stacking them. Build an array of arrays of cameras/telescopes

What would be the limit?

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