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Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

golem.ph.utexas.edu

61–70 of 186 posts

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#61

As somebody who works in a mathy subarea of computer science, oh man, I agree. My heart always falls when I need a result and it turns out the original paper is some terse typewritten notice from the 70s whose first sentence is a definition with a bunch of proper nouns and whose main theorem is given at the most general possible level with no applications at all. I have talked with math people about why this is, and…

I think it's the influence of Bourbaki[1] who were the original mathematical edgelords. I have a book (Creating Symmetry[2]) that explicits rejects this style. It's a lovely book.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki

[2]: https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691161730/cr...

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#62
post #34

Some possible counterarguments: 1. Mathematics is a lot more abstract than it used to be. 2. Mathematics is a lot more specialised than it used to be. 3. Non-mathematical content is inaccessible to those who don't read English. 4. Space in academic journals is too precious to waste on inessential content. 5. The style is part of a universal mathematical culture so you should fit in. 6. There are many alternative plac…

> Space in academic journals is too precious to waste on inessential content Not the biggest issue in maths - the arxiv version usually won't match the journal version 1:1

and they publish on internet, solid copy is not popular today.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#63
> Of the people who see your math paper, 90% will only read the title. Of those who read on, 90% will only read the abstract. Of those who go still further, 90% will read only the introduction, and then quit.

My personal experience is usually quite different. Perhaps i'm very weird but i like to think i'm nothing special. I mostly read papers when searching for something specific (referral by someone in a discussion, searching for a definition, a proof). I almost never read the introductions, at least not in my first pass. My first pass is usually scanning the outline to search which section will contain what i'm searching for and then reading that, jumping back and forth between definitions and theorems. I usually then read discussion/related work at the end, to read about what the authors think about their method, what they like or dislike in related papers.

Abstract and introduction i only read when i have done several such passes on a paper and i realize i am really interested in the thing and need to understand all the details.

I very much hate this "be catchy at the beginning" and its extremist instantiation "the quest for reader engagement". Sure you should pay attention to your prose and the story you're telling. But treating reader of a scientific paper as some busy consumer you should captivate is just disrespectful, scientifically unethical and probably just coping with current organizational problems (proliferation of papers, dilution of results, time pressure on reviewers and researchers). Scientific literature is technical, its quality should be measured by clarity and precision, ease of searching, ease of generalization, honesty about tradeoffs. Not by some engagement metric of a damned abstract.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#64
I remember once reading an opinion piece that suggested that most papers should trim the "introduction" section greatly, instead referring to key review papers or textbook entries. Although I've never followed this advice -- I want papers to be accepted, after all -- I can see a lot of merit to it.

The idea is to point readers to cohesive and well-cited treatments of the foundational material, rather than presenting them with a half-hearted pro forma summary that is unlikely to be especially insightful.

Fields that follow this scheme would likely accumulate some useful review papers that will actually be read, unlike the throw-away citations that appear in conventional introductions.

Would this scheme be beneficial to readers? I think so.

But will it take off? This seems unlikely. I read this opinion piece perhaps a decade or two ago, and I've not noticed a change in academic writing. If anything, the reverse has been true: I see more and more introductions that basically rehash introductions from other papers. And with LLM tools, this will only get worse ... the further the introduction is from the author's actual research interest, the higher the likelihood of it being irrelevant, puffed-up, or simply wrong.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#65

As somebody who works in a mathy subarea of computer science, oh man, I agree. My heart always falls when I need a result and it turns out the original paper is some terse typewritten notice from the 70s whose first sentence is a definition with a bunch of proper nouns and whose main theorem is given at the most general possible level with no applications at all. I have talked with math people about why this is, and…

>My heart always falls when I need a result and it turns out the original paper is some terse typewritten notice from the 70s whose first sentence is a definition with a bunch of proper nouns and whose main theorem is given at the most general possible level with no applications at all.

That seems like exactly the thing you want, if you are searching for a particular piece of information, the typesetting aside.

Especially the generality is important if you actually care about the result.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#66

It's not just papers. I tried to learn probabilities theory & statistics, deeper than little knowledge I kept from the uni. For instance, wanted to understand how you solve problems like samples in quality control: if in a sample of N items, m are bad, what's the chance X% are bad in production? Unfortunately, there are either introductory materials (toss a coin -- 50% chance faces) or some robot language. Or schizop…

The solution is to read textbooks. Good textbooks on these subjects certainly do exist and you just need to find and read them.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#67
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you must be a using a wrong approach to searching for mathematics. In your case I would search for a script or book with title "Introduction to probabilify theory" or "Introduction to mathematical statistics". Then you skim through it to see if you can find an analysis of your problem. If not, you can hopefully find out what the right keywords are to then find a more advanced script or book for the specif…

That's what I tried to avoid in the first place :)

So you tried to avoid an instructive text which is set up to allow readers to learn about the details of the subject starting from the ground up? And you are complaining that you can't find a resource which does exactly that?

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#68
post #13

The same should be said for engineering design docs tbh

Absolutely not. Engineering design docs should be terse and to the point.

Documentation is not a medium where you want to tell a story, because that makes it instantly much less usable, since people will read it at random parts to attain specific information.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#69

It's not just papers. I tried to learn probabilities theory & statistics, deeper than little knowledge I kept from the uni. For instance, wanted to understand how you solve problems like samples in quality control: if in a sample of N items, m are bad, what's the chance X% are bad in production? Unfortunately, there are either introductory materials (toss a coin -- 50% chance faces) or some robot language. Or schizop…

Feller's Probability volume 1 is always a good remedy for wounded probabilists :) Disregard the complaints that it is old-fashioned and dive in.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#70
post #2

I’m no mathematician, so I only took basic school math, but I hated every moment of it. Mostly because overwhelmingly there was never any context or justification for learning any of it. Why does this exist? What actual real world problems does it solve? How did folks come up with and it, prove it works and start using it? Crickets. Just learn this formula, then that. The first time I heard the ancients calculated th…

This is completely asinine.

What you say applies to every subject in school. I interpreted poetry, learned ancient history and dead language. Yet somehow the single most useful tool of thought humans have developed needs to justify itself so that you will learn it?

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