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Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

golem.ph.utexas.edu

31–40 of 186 posts

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#31
post #28

IMHO it's even worse. Once we figure out P vs NP, we will understand what it means to invert boolean functions algorithmically, and all mathematics will be replaced with an automated process. Today, most of the math is figuring out how to solve an equation, i.e. to give an algorithm to calculate the solution. We then "quantize" the algorithm to a state machine (e.g. convert reals to floats, algorithm steps to machine…

> IMHO it's even worse. Once we figure out P vs NP, we will understand what it means to invert boolean functions algorithmically, and all mathematics will be replaced with an automated process.

I'm sorry, but that's just naive techno-solutionism. Maybe the computer will be able to solve your syntax problems, i.e., write proofs. It will never know anything about the semantics.

Said differently. Maybe the computer will be able to give you a proof on demand on statement number 123456789 in some Gödel numbering of statements. What it won't be able to tell you is that the theorem should be called the "intermediate value theorem" and what it means. Math isn't just coming up with formally correct proofs for pre-existing statements.

I also don't see what "P vs NP" has to do with anything.

> Today, most of the math is figuring out how to solve an equation, i.e. to give an algorithm to calculate the solution. We then "quantize" the algorithm to a state machine (e.g. convert reals to floats, algorithm steps to machine code), so that we could run the state machine on a computer and get a result.

I'm a mathematician. What you wrote is just bonkers. Some parts of math are about writing algorithms to solve equations. The vast majority of math isn't.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#32
It's not just papers. I tried to learn probabilities theory & statistics, deeper than little knowledge I kept from the uni. For instance, wanted to understand how you solve problems like samples in quality control: if in a sample of N items, m are bad, what's the chance X% are bad in production?

Unfortunately, there are either introductory materials (toss a coin -- 50% chance faces) or some robot language. Or schizophrenic: like starting from the middle of a speech.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#33
The author may well be on to something but personally I hate "story mode" in popular science books, and would really hate it in actual science papers, both the ones I read for work and the ones I read for fun. I want to go straight to the equations -- often I prefer them to the graphs.

But (not joking here) this is a perfect opportunity for an LLM -- two opportunities, actually.

LLM A takes a dry paper and gives it context. It could make up the context but a good one would look up and offer an anecdote from Riemann's life or something. I see nothing wrong with that.

And LLM B could take a paper with that stuff, which to me is fluff, and strip it all out, leaving the dry bones for me to pick over and savour.

It would really just be another form of language translation, if a higher level one.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#34
Some possible counterarguments:

1. Mathematics is a lot more abstract than it used to be.

2. Mathematics is a lot more specialised than it used to be.

3. Non-mathematical content is inaccessible to those who don't read English.

4. Space in academic journals is too precious to waste on inessential content.

5. The style is part of a universal mathematical culture so you should fit in.

6. There are many alternative places to publish nontechnical academic writing.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#35
post #28

IMHO it's even worse. Once we figure out P vs NP, we will understand what it means to invert boolean functions algorithmically, and all mathematics will be replaced with an automated process. Today, most of the math is figuring out how to solve an equation, i.e. to give an algorithm to calculate the solution. We then "quantize" the algorithm to a state machine (e.g. convert reals to floats, algorithm steps to machine…

> IMHO it's even worse. Once we figure out P vs NP, we will understand what it means to invert boolean functions algorithmically, and all mathematics will be replaced with an automated process. I'm sorry, but that's just naive techno-solutionism. Maybe the computer will be able to solve your syntax problems, i.e., write proofs. It will never know anything about the semantics. Said differently. Maybe the computer will…

My point is, the need for semantics is a human construct, it's not required to solve practical problems. Practical value of MVT is that we can apply it in the process of describing a solution, i.e. an algorithm. But if you have a SAT algorithm that can somehow inherently apply a finite instance of MVT, you no longer need to know what MVT is.

And this is at the heart of P vs NP question, how to solve SAT, and once we understand that, all the math that is about solving equations (i.e. that of practical value) will become very boring. Kinda like when a game becomes solved with a computer.

(This reminds me of Chomsky and Norvig debate on the machine learning and nature of understanding. I wouldn't think I would take Norvig's position, yet here we are.)

Addendum: I am also not arguing that computers writing proofs are a necessity for this, but rather efficiently (as possible) solving SAT instances. You don't need to state a hypothesis (and thus prove it) for an infinite number of cases to solve practical problems.

I am also not judging value of math - yeah, it is fun. All I am saying it inherently has a human dimension in the sense we don't need it (assuming we have an efficient SAT solver) to solve practical problems.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#36

As somebody who works in a mathy subarea of computer science, oh man, I agree. My heart always falls when I need a result and it turns out the original paper is some terse typewritten notice from the 70s whose first sentence is a definition with a bunch of proper nouns and whose main theorem is given at the most general possible level with no applications at all. I have talked with math people about why this is, and…

> ... some terse typewritten notice from the 70s

Personally, I rather like these these; they have a certain retro-appeal, in particular old Springer mathematics publications. We are so spoilt with LaTex.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#38

It's not just papers. I tried to learn probabilities theory & statistics, deeper than little knowledge I kept from the uni. For instance, wanted to understand how you solve problems like samples in quality control: if in a sample of N items, m are bad, what's the chance X% are bad in production? Unfortunately, there are either introductory materials (toss a coin -- 50% chance faces) or some robot language. Or schizop…

I feel like you must be a using a wrong approach to searching for mathematics. In your case I would search for a script or book with title "Introduction to probabilify theory" or "Introduction to mathematical statistics". Then you skim through it to see if you can find an analysis of your problem. If not, you can hopefully find out what the right keywords are to then find a more advanced script or book for the specific subfield your problem needs.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#39
post #2

I’m no mathematician, so I only took basic school math, but I hated every moment of it. Mostly because overwhelmingly there was never any context or justification for learning any of it. Why does this exist? What actual real world problems does it solve? How did folks come up with and it, prove it works and start using it? Crickets. Just learn this formula, then that. The first time I heard the ancients calculated th…

Did you not have a physics class around the same time you learned calculus and linear algebra? That makes it obvious what the application is.

Re: Math writing is dull when it neglects the human dimension

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is always subliminally affecting you. It might as well do it in a helpful way.

> everything is always subliminally affecting you Right, but certain methods are more effective than others. This paper is arguing and encouraging exactly how to manipulate more effectively. > It might as well do it in a helpful way Being more effective in teaching I agree is a good thing. But a math paper isn't for teaching, it's for showing a proof or making an argument. I just think we ought to set standards on ac…

I think it was the word "subliminal" that made you think of manipulation.

On the other hand, I read the quote you posted as meeting the reader at their level and guiding them to a clearer, deeper understanding by providing information in a logical, intuitive way. This would mean, for example, providing real-world context for each abstract concept introduced, rather than just leaving the concept by itself together with an abstract definition.

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