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The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

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Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#61
post #55
post #40

This is just absurd. Non-accredited, branded schools will provide better education for less money? Really? I assume he's referring to the growing for-profit college industry. Yet for-profit colleges are actually the biggest culprits driving up the student debt. Students at for-profit colleges run up more debt, are more likely to drop out, and are more likely to end up under-employed than those at traditional universi…

I think he is referring to startups like codeacademy, not for profit schools. He's saying and betting that people like kahn will start more kahnacademy online schools and education. People who aren't driven by greed will cause the for profit schools, rising tuitions, and maximum student loan amounts to be unneccesary.

Yeah, I thought about that, and that could be the case (in which case I would have different, but less serious, concerns).

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#62

I am in my first year as a mathematics professor at the University of South Carolina. Having moved here from Stanford, I've noticed several things. (1) Many students are woefully underprepared. In my calculus classes I have found that a great many of the students have not mastered high school algebra. And these are the students who pass our placement exam, and aren't obliged to take one of our many algebra and precal…

Most students are crap at math. That's a fact. There is 0 encouragement to spend high school refining math skills. Also don't confuse motivation with laziness, priorities, or time management. To a psych major, calc might seem like one of those bullshit classes you have to take. To an EE Major it might just be more hours of work that could be spent sleeping.

There is a relevance problem, yeah. I personally was motivated to really learn calc in 1st year college, mainly by physics classes. I wasn't a physics major, but I found the freshman physics class really interesting. In particular I found it interesting that via this tool, calculus, you could actually re-derive the entirety of elementary physics (stuff like dist = v0 t + (a t^2)/2), and much more, via a procedure with more internal logic and less arbitrary memorization. It almost felt like a successful good-cop/bad-cop setup: bad-cop high school made me memorize a bunch of bullshit special-case formulas, and then good-cop college explained to me that you could just do calculus to derive the answer.

I could certainly see how those motivators wouldn't apply to all students, though. Honestly they applied to me mostly out of personal, side-project-esque interest. In CS I tend to use statistics and discrete math a lot more than calculus, though calculus comes up occasionally.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#63

Mark Cuban writes: "As an employer I want the best prepared and qualified employees. I could care less if the source of their education was accredited by a bunch of old men and women who think they know what is best for the world. I want people who can do the job. I want the best and brightest. Not a piece of paper." So, I suppose I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that Mark Cuban d…

The first mistake here is submitting a resume.

You need to be calling your contacts at Mark Cuban and saying, "Yeah, I'm in good shape here, but I'm willing to look at other things."

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#64
I graduated from college three years ago.

When I signed the loan I was 18 and did not fully understand how much a loan would affect my life. It was very easy to receive an unsubsidized loan. I did not really think about too much to be honest. Growing up in a nice suburb. It was just the norm. My friends older brothers took out loans. My older friends did the same.

I grew up middle class. My parents had good jobs. I started working when I was sixteen. I did not do great in high school. In college I did very well. My last two years were the hardest. I worked fulltime. Having no free time was difficult. Still, I loved learning and it was a valuable learning experience. I was able to manage fun life, work life, and school life.

I worked hard at getting a good internship and a high GPA. At the end, in 2009, it was very hard to get job interviews. As a recent graduate, I could not get my foot in the door anywhere. I ended up a high end luxury store. It paid the bills. I recently quit because of family stuff I had to take care off. Now, I am jobless. I realized I have to start from square one. I am applying for internships at startups in Chicago.

Working for thirteen dollars an hour was just enough to make a living. I saw how many people without loans or college degrees had a better lifestyle. They did not have to worry about a large percentage of their income going back to the government. I am still unsure if it was the wrong choice. I learned more than I ever planned.

College changed my life in many positive ways. I am still an avid learner. I started reading news.ycombinator because I wanted to learn more about programming. I am enrolled in Udacaity right now. I also taught myself graphic design in the last year.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#65
post #40

This is just absurd. Non-accredited, branded schools will provide better education for less money? Really? I assume he's referring to the growing for-profit college industry. Yet for-profit colleges are actually the biggest culprits driving up the student debt. Students at for-profit colleges run up more debt, are more likely to drop out, and are more likely to end up under-employed than those at traditional universi…

I agree about the non-accredited schools. That statement made me cringe more than a little bit.

I also cringed when tech was pointed to as a model of innovation in education assuming he is referring to codeacademy and the likes. Don't get me wrong I like those services for what they aim at but I absolutely do not think they are a good model for core education - the kind of education that produces general capital as you note. Core education consists of building critical and analytical thinking skills - something that is very difficult to teach effectively through online or automated education.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#66
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which argument are you talking about? If the cost doubled for him to pay out of pocket, it doubled for him. Talking about sticker price vs. adjusted metrics is really arguing semantics in this case if somebody is stuck paying what's charged up front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination If he can afford to pay twice as much and did so then the school was wise to raise it's sticker price. They can then take the 'surplus' that he paid and use it to reduce the price of a more desirable students who are less able to pay.

>reduce the price of a more desirable students who are less able to pay.

A very small percentage of the total financial aid comes directly from the school, so this is not what is happening. The vast majority of financial aid is from the state and federal government which is not financed by tuition.

They are using the extra money by and large to fund additional administration expenses, a new football team and other prestige projects in order to boost the perceived status of the school.

>If he can afford to pay twice as much and did so then the school was wise to raise it's sticker price.

I'm not saying that it raising tuition wasn't the rational choice for the school. However, it only works because federal loans allow them to do it. Almost no one can actually afford to pay the increased tuition out of pocket.

The more money the government makes available for student loans the higher tuition will go.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#67
I think the more interesting aspect is how long are we going to keep the choke hold on graduates who are currently drowning in debt and will be for a while. Is it a net win that the Dept of Education gets paid while a substantial chunk of would-be middle class Americans can't purchase cars / houses / children and are generally disincentivized to produce by their $1300/mo debt service? Will we start to see a parade of law suits from former students against their universities? The situation really is absurd.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#68

The other end of the problem is that kid's aren't even trying to flip their degree. Most kids consider college and experience not an investment. You're kid is the worst investor on the planet. Because instead of majoring in Bioengineering they are majoring in psychology. And If they are majoring in psychology they aren't out to get the best damn research positions over the summer and publish papers, they are out work…

Most kids consider college and experience not an investment.

How many are there due to pressure? At the end of my high school career, I was ready to enter the workforce. I was already working in the industry I wanted to be in; there was little value to going from that perspective. Yet, the pressure from teachers and peers persisted. I was going to fail in life if I didn't go to school. You know the meme, I'm sure. I eventually succumbed and enrolled. Thankfully, I realized in my first year that I was wasting my time.

I picked up another job, used it to hone my experience in the industry, and by the time my friends were graduating, I was able to move myself into my dream job. I really don't see how a post-secondary education could have improved anything. It would have only been a hobby, which too is respectable, but not the right fit for me at that point in my life.

There's so much malarkey that goes around about education, it leads young people, without a clear view of how the world really works, to make hasty decisions that often ends with a massive amount of debt. I admire those who are in school for the right reasons, I just question how many really are there for the right reasons. I know I wasn't. I'm just glad I realized sooner than later.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#69
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's all your resume says, then you're probably right. But there should be something on there that indicates that you can do the job otherwise you wasted your time applying. The point is that education says nothing about being able to do the job in many cases. If you are applying for an engineering position and you have MIT on your resume, that is certainly going to imply that you very likely have what it takes.…

Unfortunately, "went to MIT" is both easily recognizable and easily verified. "Built a fusion reactor in my basement" is neither of those things. Similarly, "check out my GitHub" has many of the same problems. I'm sorry, but most employers don't have time to look you up on GitHub to crawl through all your commits. That will happen if you get past the first cut, but it won't do anything beforehand. Sure, you can put "…

You didn't make a clear point, but I want to say this incase people believe you are implying otherwise. I've worked at a few of the largest companies in the world, with the classic HR dept, and they have all had numerous good programmers with nothing more than a high school diploma. I've hired a few myself. It really isn't hard to show someone that you know what you're doing.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#70

I am in my first year as a mathematics professor at the University of South Carolina. Having moved here from Stanford, I've noticed several things. (1) Many students are woefully underprepared. In my calculus classes I have found that a great many of the students have not mastered high school algebra. And these are the students who pass our placement exam, and aren't obliged to take one of our many algebra and precal…

Most students are crap at math. That's a fact. There is 0 encouragement to spend high school refining math skills. Also don't confuse motivation with laziness, priorities, or time management. To a psych major, calc might seem like one of those bullshit classes you have to take. To an EE Major it might just be more hours of work that could be spent sleeping.

I went to public HS in the US, and the math education there was terrible and completely sub-standard. The science was about average. Now, the school wasn't all bad. The humanities (English, Latin, German, French, Spanish, History) were all of very high quality. I had to do remedial math work before going to college, but had a perfect score on my verbal SAT. I've often wondered why that happened. The only reason I can come up with is that it's harder to get qualified and excellent math educators because those people end up making more money elsewhere.
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