Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society • Hacker News Board

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#61

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, May 10, 2012, 5:54 PM UTC

gm wrote: post #39

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one. Unpaid internships undermine the entire legal and moral principle that workers are supposed to be paid. There's a reason we have minimum-wage laws, and of course, anti- slavery laws.

Bullshit. A requirement of slavery is to both be forced to work and not have a choice of where you work (google it). And don't get me started on moral principles. Moral principles are each person's own. Certainly you do not want to be held to _my_ moral principles, right? Why should anyone else be held to someone else's? If the moral principles are strong enough turn them into law. The only question that is genuine i…

And if internships had the relevant laws actually enforced, you would have been paid to do what you now do for a living.

For God's sake, how could you call yourself a moral person if you take 100% of the product of another person's labor, leaving them nothing to live on?

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#62

Post by codexon » Thu, May 10, 2012, 5:54 PM UTC

gm wrote: post #53

codexon wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Zynga figures they can get free labor, your salary may take a drop, or at least stagnate.

Zynga _could_ get free labor if they wanted. People from all over are continually interested in working here.

This isn't about getting random volunteers from the internet.

This is about every new hire coming in the door at $0 and thus lowering the cap on your salary progression.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#63

Post by gms » Thu, May 10, 2012, 5:55 PM UTC

blindhippo wrote: post #56

drumdance wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as crazy as you think. Many economists support this.

Err what? Not as crazy... Care to back this statement up with references to said "economists"? If you give organizations the option to employ people and just randomly decide not to pay them, they will at every opportunity NOT pay time. This is basic logic... the motivators for the organization propel this behavior and the American market system will reward them for it - these economists you speak of are likely cracke…

The free market actually doesn't reward this behaviour.

Consider that organisations that decide not to pay their workers might very well lose out to those who do.

If Organisation A doesn't pay their workers, then all my organisation has to do to steal their productive workers is to offer a wage. Organisation A loses out and eventually has to shut down, while I and the workers win.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#64

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, May 10, 2012, 5:57 PM UTC

drumdance wrote: post #41

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, we should pass a law saying that you never have to pay employees if you don't want to. The number of jobs will simply explode!

Not as crazy as you think. Many economists support this.

You are thinking of the Chicago and Austrian school economists on the subject of the minimum wage. We're not talking about minimum wages, except in the sense that they should be above zero. We are talking about the requirement that companies pay workers at all.

Do you expect people to just slowly starve to death for the sheer joy of toiling away?

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#65

Post by paulgb » Thu, May 10, 2012, 5:58 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #40

paulgb wrote: post #11

I don't buy the argument that unpaid internships are immoral because they disadvantage the underprivileged. Higher education systematically disadvantages the underprivileged, especially at US tuition rates. Does that make going to Harvard unethical? There is clearly a supply/demand mismatch in some industries, and unpaid internships are a symptom, not the cause. I get defensive when the issue of unpaid internships co…

Honestly comparing an unpaid internship in High School is no where near the same as requiring 20-somethings in college and university to work for free. I also did the unpaid internship thing in high school (which turned in a paid job) and I did a fully paid internships in University. I could not afford to work for free as an 18 year old on my own. It's amazing that in a country with a minimum wage it's still possible…

I'm not saying anything about requiring 20-somethings to work for free. I couldn't have afforded to work for free in college either. I agree that it's a different situation.

My point is that I was able to make an informed decision to take an unpaid position, and it benefited me. Had it been a paid position, it either wouldn't have been offered (the department didn't have a lot of money) or would have gone to someone else with more experience. So when people advocate for unpaid internships to be banned, I get frustrated, especially when they say it's for the intern's benefit.

Don't get me wrong, it absolutely sucks that it's possible (market-wise) to hire university grads for nothing, but banning unpaid internships doesn't solve the underlying market problem. And I'd argue that it doesn't increase social mobility, either, since floor/ceiling prices tend to encourage nepotism.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#66

Post by liber8 » Thu, May 10, 2012, 5:59 PM UTC

blindhippo wrote: post #56

drumdance wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as crazy as you think. Many economists support this.

Err what? Not as crazy... Care to back this statement up with references to said "economists"? If you give organizations the option to employ people and just randomly decide not to pay them, they will at every opportunity NOT pay time. This is basic logic... the motivators for the organization propel this behavior and the American market system will reward them for it - these economists you speak of are likely cracke…

Nearly every economist on the planet recognizes that minimum wage laws are net counter-productive. They are great for the limited number of people who happen to snag one of these over-paying jobs, but they are not so great for all the other people whose skills are not worth that amount, and are thus made unemployable.

And, as you can see in basically every position where government hasn't mandated that employers pay some minimum wage, organizations do not choose to pay people zero. Ever. They choose to pay people just enough to perform the work that needs doing. Sometimes that number is $10 per hour, sometimes that number is $24,000,000 per year.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#67

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:00 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #51

phillmv wrote: post #8

Do we have a good economic narrative for unpaid internships outside of naturally abusive talent driven industries (music, film, journalism)? Do internships just fall in this hole where you'd like to have an office wench but can't quite justify it in a budget, or is it entirely a made up social convention where older generations are extracting rents from new graduates? At any rate, the effect seems pretty clear to me:…

Internships aren't for making money, they're for gaining experience. Getting paid for them is nice, but the experience is the important part. For some companies having to pay interns would just mean they wouldn't offer internships at all. The reason interns are paid less (or not at all) is that there are lower expectations for interns and other staff usually has to take time to mentor them or check their work. Maybe…

Maybe not the best example, but if a new paid employee says, "No, I've never used source control, what's that about?" it's a big problem. If an intern says it, you explain it and move on.

And thus it came to pass that the unpaid internship replaced the entry-level job.

I know there's no point in pleading with an economically rational capitalist like yourself, but stop exploiting the proletariat, or one of these days we won't even walk into your damned office.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#68

Post by jreeve » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:01 PM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #28

jreeve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... unpaid internships are huge drivers of inequality." I believe that they can be, but as someone who actually had an unpaid intern (and who eventually got said intern a job at the company where we were working), let me make a case that they do not have to be exploitative. I personally enjoy teaching, and have taught at two different universities. In addition to simply being a rewarding thing to do, it is a good wa…

Ok, so you didn't exploit that worker. Congratulations. But what about the other kid who may or may not have been more qualified than the kid you hired, but couldn't afford to work for free?

Well, what about the folks who also couldn't afford to go to the school that the guy was going to?

I mean, ultimately, the big obvious problem of capitalism is that the upkeep of labor is pushed onto the laborer... almost to the point where (to a very small extent) it could be possible that forcing labor to pay for its upkeep while exploiting it for profit is a defining characteristic of capitalism.

While I find it to be an interesting discussion, unless you want to decry systematic problems, you're really not going far enough with your "what about".

And we don't have to do everything within that system, do we? I mean, isn't direct action a good response to large, systematic problems?

"Wait, what are you saying? Employment should be predicated on the employer giving the employee an adequate monetary reward in exchange for an adequate monetary reward for the employee? And if either side isn't getting their adequate monetary reward, the job shouldn't exist? This is a radical concept!"

No, my point is that an internship is not a"job", interns shouldn't be treated like "employees", and that I was trading, based on my experience as a both a teacher and an expert in the content area for a personal reward of getting to teach for a bit.

When internships are equivocal with jobs, they are exploitative. I agree with you and the linked article on that.

What is not exploitative is when there is an actual exchange of, say, useful information and pedagogy in a system where you can't learn techniques without making stuff, especially in a way that privileged the growth of both a specific person and a larger workforce.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#69

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:02 PM UTC

phillmv wrote: post #38

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Narrative? Any company is going to take free labor if they can get away with it. The problem here is the clear contravention of labor laws.

Yes. But why is this a new situation? What's changed about the economy if this is only now becoming standard practice? Is there really a large glut of recent graduates and a corresponding lack of new jobs, or is this just a collective action problem where since recent graduates can't reject unpaid internships en masse we're stuck in a race to the bottom? Do we offer unpaid internships because there are just so many p…

Is there really a large glut of recent graduates and a corresponding lack of new jobs, or is this just a collective action problem where since recent graduates can't reject unpaid internships en masse we're stuck in a race to the bottom?

Both. That's the way the labor market has always been: a collective-action problem where any one worker can undercut living standards for everyone else in their field whenever supply outnumbers demand. The answer to the problem, traditionally, has been to unionize.

We're only one or two steps away from reverse paid internships, or looking at them as investments. "Seeking executive assistant. Minimum MBA or equivalent post-graduate degree. First one to pony up $20k gets it".

Which is going to be the point where the Protestant Work Ethic finally breaks down and America's youth goes on strike. I'm looking forward to it.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#70

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:06 PM UTC

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #60

drumdance wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as crazy as you think. Many economists support this.

This is just abolishing the minimum wage. Since most people don't get paid the minimum wage this would only affect a small number of workers. But the main benefit is that currently unemployable people would actually be able to get hired.

If a job isn't productive enough to provide for the upkeep of the worker (ie: to pay a living wage), why should it exist? At that point, the worker's slow-motion death (or the welfare money society pays to prevent that) are just subsidizing a ridiculously unproductive employer.