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Punk is dead and so are we

bananapeel.substack.com

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Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#61

Post by zingababba »

hooverd wrote: post #13

This guy has gotta read less theory.

Yeeeep. Also, he's spot on with his self-assessment of not having a pulse on today's youth.

I've been spending time around young tattoo apprentices recently. What I've found is that there is an aesthetic revivalist movement underway just with new hyper forms of expression that often are /extremely/ jarring to normals. Spend a day listening to musical genres like phonk/hyperpop. Everything the new kids are doing is heavily tinted with accelerationism. Honestly who gives a shit about punk anyway, things come and go. Go read some more theory and cry some more about it I guess.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#62

Post by pavel_lishin »

DontchaKnowit wrote: post #55
mchinen wrote: post #24

There is a sort of nihilism that emerges when you look deeper at counterculture and it's conformity. Neo recognizing with horror the other neos is a great example. (In that case it only worked out for him because of hollywood's love of love - because he loved trinity so much he was really different from the rest.) I've often wondered how the leaders of the hippie, punk, and more modern movements would compare to clas…

In my opinion, todays true counterculture is conservative religious communities. There is nother more counter to the cultural moment then being a traditionally moral, upright citizen who doesnt do drugs, doesnt lie, cheat, steal, has their libido under control, is reliable, whose existence is profitable to the rest of the world (not neccessarily economically, just mean someone who contributes more than they take : fi…

I think it's a bold claim to make, that conservative religious communities are comprised of humans who don't lie, cheat, steal, and have their libido under control.

I'm sure some exist, just by dint of probability, but plenty more are made of regular stock humans like you or me, or worse.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#63

Post by api »

There are plenty of alternatives to capitalism discussed all over the place. I see them every day. What there aren't are alternatives that are both better and achievable in the real world.

Fascism, traditionalism, neo-monarchism, authoritarian forms of socialism, and theocracy are all very real and have both adherents at home and entire societies abroad that attempt to live by their rules. Unfortunately all of them yield a society that is worse in many important respects than Western liberal capitalism. They are stifling, repressive, or lead to poverty. The domestic adherents of these ideas tend to be either angry nihilists and edgelords who hate their own lives and just want any kind of change, or fanatics (e.g. religious zealots) who are obsessed with controlling and restricting the personal choices of others.

There are also lots of pure fantasies that are pushed as alternatives to capitalism: neo-primitivism, hand-wavey futurist utopias, new age woo, etc. While these may or may not be better, the point is moot because they are not achievable. There is no path from here to there, or in many cases there isn't even a "there." There's just a vague idea that if we all abandon what we have now and love each other or something magic will happen and we'll get utopia. History shows us that without a real serious workable plan we're more likely to get a slum run by warlords or a new boss that's worse than the old boss.

If someone thinks of a serious alternative to Western liberal capitalism that is both better and achievable (there is a path from here to there, and an actual "there"), I think they'll get plenty of attention. There is no invisible conspiracy that will somehow stop people from thinking of this or discussing it. It's just that nobody's done it yet.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#64

Post by amalcon »

colonwqbang wrote: post #27
TotalCrackpot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative would be libertarian socialism, with economy of some mixture of cooperative economics, decentralized planning, gift economy and library economy.

Do you have any good links that explain more? In my mind the ideas of socialism and libertarianism are polar opposites.

I'm guessing you're a fellow American? Or talk to a lot of Americans online? Here, for some reason, left-libertarians barely seem to exist compared to right-libertarians. They aren't that uncommon elsewhere, though. The distinction is mainly that they want to weaken power structures of all sorts, not just governments.

Wikipedia on left-libertarianism isn't too bad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism), though notably missing a "Criticism" section.

Note that I don't endorse the views described in that article. I am expressing neither support nor opposition for left-libertarianism as a political philosophy. I have zero interest in debating the merits or demerits here at this time; I'm only trying to answer a question.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#65

Post by sfmz »

pjmorris wrote: post #5
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #2

I think the author misattributed who the modern era punks would be. At least based on the described framework of what punk counter-culture was about and what it was countering. Given how much of the mainstream is organized around overwrought advertising, influencering, guruing, and being terminally online... it seems like the modern punks would be the counter-culture that prioritizes being offline, being private, and…

If an old punk ethic was 'Do It Yourself' (DIY), maybe the modern punk equivalent would be 'Do It Offline' (DIO.)

The dominant behavior will always be buying instead of making, so (DIY) will always be counter-culture (and sometimes create interesting little communities).

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#66

Post by ryukoposting »

This is a wonderfully-written piece, and it articulates the paradoxical nature of countercultures better than I've ever been able to. Punk Rock is dead, long live Punk Rock.

I think there are real artistic countercultures out there, but they exist on the margins of art and society (as they must, innately). They're hard to discover, and even when they are discovered, they're inaccessible, bizarre, and disquieting (as they must be, innately).

I'm reminded of my record collection, and one record in particular: an autographed copy of The Great Annihilator, by Swans[1]. Besides the music itself, the peculiar thing about this record is the way it's autographed. Michael Gira signed it on the back, tucked away in the bottom corner. I've always wondered why he did it this way. Maybe it's a way of saying "here's my signature you materialistic loser, have fun trying to display this overpriced souvenir." Maybe it's a way of saying "appreciate the art as it was meant to be appreciated, don't use it as a display piece." Maybe I'm reading into it too much, and it means nothing at all.

[1]: They're a bit better known than they once were, but for anyone who doesn't know about them, go listen to some Swans. It's abrasive and uncomfortable, and you'll probably hate it. But it doesn't exist for the purpose of being abrasive and uncomfortable, and that's key. It's an artist's unfiltered creative vision. Incidentally, Cobain was a big Swans fan.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#67

Post by ethbr1 »

DontchaKnowit wrote: post #55
mchinen wrote: post #24

There is a sort of nihilism that emerges when you look deeper at counterculture and it's conformity. Neo recognizing with horror the other neos is a great example. (In that case it only worked out for him because of hollywood's love of love - because he loved trinity so much he was really different from the rest.) I've often wondered how the leaders of the hippie, punk, and more modern movements would compare to clas…

In my opinion, todays true counterculture is conservative religious communities. There is nother more counter to the cultural moment then being a traditionally moral, upright citizen who doesnt do drugs, doesnt lie, cheat, steal, has their libido under control, is reliable, whose existence is profitable to the rest of the world (not neccessarily economically, just mean someone who contributes more than they take : fi…

That feels unnecessarily savior-lauding and like blending a grab bag of unrelated traits into an idealized person.

There's plenty of darkness within the strictures of conservative religious communities -- mostly resultant from the evil that corrupt people perpetrate when given (by God) power in hierarchical structures.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#68

Post by brightball »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #62
DontchaKnowit wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, todays true counterculture is conservative religious communities. There is nother more counter to the cultural moment then being a traditionally moral, upright citizen who doesnt do drugs, doesnt lie, cheat, steal, has their libido under control, is reliable, whose existence is profitable to the rest of the world (not neccessarily economically, just mean someone who contributes more than they take : fi…

I think it's a bold claim to make, that conservative religious communities are comprised of humans who don't lie, cheat, steal, and have their libido under control. I'm sure some exist, just by dint of probability, but plenty more are made of regular stock humans like you or me, or worse.

All churches are full of sinners just like hospitals are full of sick people.

You're there to get well.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#69

Post by photochemsyn »

Punk's not dead, it's just that songs like Dead Kennedy's "Lynch the Landlord" and "Holiday in Cambodia" or MDC's "John Wayne was a Nazi" and "Ronald McDonald, Corporate Deathburger" and so on are now deemed to be violently inflammatory and would be subjected to shadowbanning and suppression on every social media and streaming platform, and no consolidated MusicBorg contracts would be likely either. Musical performers today all know that engaging in political activism that's not aligned with elite interests will lead to career destruction. The same thing happened with rap - you won't see Public Enemy-style groups being promoted today.

Punk was not noted for musical talent, but that didn't distract too much because of the energy of the performers. There's a Foo Fighter's cover of "Holiday in Cambodia" from about a decade ago that's worth listening to, it does sound better when the musicians can keep time.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#70

Post by bux93 »

tekla wrote: post #22
5fvu75cji75d wrote: post #12

[flagged]

How? Its literally the dominant one. If Lockheed Martin is flying the rainbow colored flag, I have no idea how anyone would consider it counter culture.

The President 'pardoning' a Turkey for Christmas doesn't mean we suddenly live in a vegan society, in fact, rather the reverse.
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