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What is going on in Argentina?

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Re: What is going on in Argentina?

#61
I've been there in 2011. Wonderful place. At the time Brazil was recovering from the 2008 crises, which was very light for us, and our economy was probably at its top. I had my first job as a programmer and was very well payed compared to locals. I saved all the money to travel there and pay all expenses for me and my girlfriend in about just 4 months; that's how strongly we were economically. At the time 1 Brazilian real was worth 2 Argentinian pesos and 1 USD was worth less than 2 BRL.

At the time, Cristina Kirchner had just won elections and BsAs was full of her posters. Being there at the time felt like being in Europe HDI with south american prices; it was that good and cheap. Cities were beautiful, clean, organized, I spent some time in La Plata which seemed designed in simcity, felt much safer than Brazil and although there were already some signs of decadence like some poor people around, it still looked much better than Brazil.

Around 2014 Argentina had already entered in crises, and so did Brazil. At my job, a new colleague was from Argentina. I think he was a level-headed liberal, he sometimes talked about something like how the situation there was. By that time, 1 BRL was worth around 4 pesos and 1 USD was worth 2.35 BRL.

Two years ago (2022) I talked with a friend. I explained him how in 2011 I could save all the money to travel Argetina in just 4 months, I couldn't do the same now even if I get twice the salary I had at the time: our prices increased a lot and even though at the time 1 BRL was worth more than 30 pesos!

Now, here we are in 2024: 1 BRL is worth around 170 pesos, 1 USD is close to 5 BRL. The article says: "We were mostly left with the impression that it wouldn’t be so bad to turn into Argentina after all.", " I felt safer in most places than I do anywhere in Brazil", "I had an incredible time in Argentina. The country is absolutely stunning, and the people are also fantastic.". Actually it is not Brazil who may turn into Argentina, but Argentina which is turning into Brazil after a long effort to keep social indexes high... artificially or not.

We in Brazil also had our own hyper-inflation period. It happened during the 80's. Prices were so volatile that my father bought things and wrote in boxes what the price was in liters of gasoline, so he could have an idea of how much it had really cost. We took a long time to reach stability, from the 90's to early 2000's, but we got there and I hope Argentina will be able to do the same.

Although Brazil and Argentina are seen as rivals, I really love that country and people and wish them the best.

Re: What is going on in Argentina?

#62

They elected a freakin' maniac and they're gonna pay a heavy price for that. In Brazil we have a saying "pior que tá não fica", which translates to something like "it cannot get worse than this". Belive me when I say this: it can (and probably will) get worse. It can (and probably will) get SO MUCH worse. We tasted this poison with 4 years of Bolsonaro trying to get away from the establishment. What did we get in ret…

The alternative was the economy minister largely responsible of how we got to where we are now. Minister of a president who basically said "you know what I'm out" in 2022 and basically gave the government to said minister.

> The alternative was the economy minister largely responsible of how we got to where we are now.

That's the problem though. It's completely understandable to vote against that. But to have one option to the status quo, and that option is this?

It's basically like you have lived beyond your means for a long while and you live in a too big house and the sensible solution might be to get another job, sell the car and move to a smaller place. But see that choice doesn't exist. Your choice is to keep aggregating debt, OR you burn the house down and live in a tent.

The problem with very bitter medicine like this is that it risks swinging back the other way just as fast when people become angry enough.

Re: What is going on in Argentina?

#63
post #16

Once financial systems collapse a lot of things stop making any sort of sense. Behaviours and incentives change. You saw the same in Zim

I visited the Soviet Union right at the tail end, and it sounds similar. Official exchange rate (4 rubles to the dollar), street exchange rate (12+ rubles), a mix of shops and restaurants taking dollars unofficially, and people were generally ... fine with it? The economy obviously wasn't working, but everyone was housed, fed and clothed.

Re: What is going on in Argentina?

#64

For those not keeping up with the news, Argentina used to be an extremely wealthy country, but went the reverse route many decades ago and has embraced peronism for awhile (kind of a mixture of socialism and fascism) that has led to rampant inflation. They recently elected Javier Milei (an economist and former sex guru) who although some media claim is a radical rightwing candidate, center-right Libertarian might be…

it is essentially the ideology that folks like Ron Paul and a lot of the libertarian think tanks (e.g. Cato institute) proclaim

That's unfair to Milei. He actually practices what he preaches.

Ron Paul would talk the talk but when it came to saying no to pork...

https://www.latimes.com/archives/blogs/top-of-the-ticket/sto...

His son is the senator from Kentucky...a state that wouldn't survive without "handouts" from the federal government...

Also..BRICS is a joke. It was made up by Goldman Sachs..

https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/archive/building-b...

Re: What is going on in Argentina?

#65
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've tested many different ideologies and organisational structures just in the last few hundred years. Currently we have a successful but pretty crappy form of capitalism. Some countries have experimented with Communism, fascism, oligarchy (ism)?), feudalism ect ect. Why not give libertarianism a shot?

>Why not give libertarianism a shot? Because it's capitalism on steroids? Are you not aware of the world we're living in? Every major forest destroyed, countless species exctinct, climate change reaching point of no return, etc. We urgently need to slow down, not speed up.

The most developed countries should show us an example then. I am not Argentinian or from South America at all, but we have the same problems. As long as an average American keeps their consumption levels at more than 10× of ours, I am not listening to what they think we should or shouldn't do. Same for other poor countries, I guess.

Re: What is going on in Argentina?

#66

I've been there in 2011. Wonderful place. At the time Brazil was recovering from the 2008 crises, which was very light for us, and our economy was probably at its top. I had my first job as a programmer and was very well payed compared to locals. I saved all the money to travel there and pay all expenses for me and my girlfriend in about just 4 months; that's how strongly we were economically. At the time 1 Brazilian…

Is it true the Brazil Real is named after that currency crisis. Meaning the real rate of the currency or just urban legend?

Re: What is going on in Argentina?

#67
post #52
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the Government has been Peronist (which many consider to be equivalent to socialist) in Argentina from WW2 to 1970, and then from 1989 onwards. A large government spending lots of money. Add in wage and price controls (classic authoritarian leftwing policies), and economic ruin was an inevitability Inflation has nothing to do with libertarianism and everything to do with a state that tried to run everything…

you are incorrectly conflating socialism with peronism, which is more fascist than socialist, though it certainly has socialist factions within it

Peronism is relevant, but its an unhelpful term, as its meaning has mutated over the year with different "Peronist" leaders.

But fundamentally (if you look at the twenty tenets of Peronism) it is a populist leftwing ideology that aligns strongly with trade unions, social justice and economic nationalism. We can argue the toss as to whether this implies it is "socialist" or not, but it's certainly far from free market capitalism.

Re: What is going on in Argentina?

#68
> It also didn’t just stop there. January saw a 20% inflation rate, meaning from the day we crossed the border from Uruguay to Argentina to the day we crossed the border back to Brazil, about a month later, prices were about 20% higher.

That’s not a 20% inflation rate. It’s a monthly amount.

That’s a 1.2^12 - 1 = 791.60% inflation rate.

Re: What is going on in Argentina?

#69
post #35

It’s the shock doctrine again.

Argentina has been both badly treated by the international financial system AND completely failed to fix their own problems. After agricultural export collapsed mid-century they've failed to develop better export industries except a bit of tourism.

We have two problems: corruption and some organizations pushing against us.

https://www.greenpeace.org/argentina/campanas-ganadas/

Greenpeace helped ban salmon farming.

They also tried to stop offshore oil exploration, they just delayed it. This is the kind of things we cannot accept

Re: What is going on in Argentina?

#70

I've been there in 2011. Wonderful place. At the time Brazil was recovering from the 2008 crises, which was very light for us, and our economy was probably at its top. I had my first job as a programmer and was very well payed compared to locals. I saved all the money to travel there and pay all expenses for me and my girlfriend in about just 4 months; that's how strongly we were economically. At the time 1 Brazilian…

Is it true the Brazil Real is named after that currency crisis. Meaning the real rate of the currency or just urban legend?

Yes it is true. And before the new bills came, we a value unit which was called URV: "unidade real de valor" which is portuguese for "Unity of real value".

Source:

"Por que o 'real' ganhou esse nome? Por que ele matava dois coelhos também. Tem fundo histórico, já que é o nome da moeda anterior ao cruzeiro, e remete à ideia de uma moeda com 'valor real'."[1]

Translation: How 'real' got its name? Two birds in one stone. There's also a historic background, since it is the name of the currency befrore cruzeiro and brings the idea of a currency with 'real value'".

[1] https://super.abril.com.br/coluna/oraculo/por-que-a-moeda-br...

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