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Poland's Most Famous Dish: Pierogi

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Re: Poland's Most Famous Dish: Pierogi

#61

Post by acadapter »

genman wrote: post #57
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. “Rus” is an ethnonym, of famously Scandinavian origin, used across the entire East Slavic area and was never something limited to people in now-Ukraine that people in now-Russia could “steal”. The Uralic- and Turkic-speaking peoples of the Middle Volga, for example, already called the neighboring Slavic-speaking populations “Rus” in the medieval era.

Actually no. "Rus" was meant to describe "all" East Slavic people, but Russians took it for themselves "only" and started to call Ukrainians "Little Russians" in sense of "Lesser Russians".

Belarusians also call themselves a variation of "rus", obviously.

And "Little Russia" is an old name of a geographical region (which somewhat corresponds to the traditionally Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine).

Re: Poland's Most Famous Dish: Pierogi

#62

Post by xlii »

wolterlw wrote: post #46
xlii wrote: post #19

+1 from me, as article mention one of the small annoyances I have. My family comes from Red Ruthenia, region where ruskie pierogi comes from. Because of lingual characteristic they are usually linked to Russia (as mentioned in article) and so, with all the turmoil many restaurants decided to rename them: either to pierogi with potatoes and cheese or to galicean - as from Galicia, which is commonly perceived as Krakow…

Writing from the Ukrainian side of Galicia here, I would point out that Krakow is far from being the center of the region. Przemyśl or Zamosc lie much closer to the center if you include our side of Galicia where pierogis are widely popular as well. Matter of fact my family and many others here cook and eat them every week on Sunday, which I now hold as a near and dear tradition. There is something special about roll…

You're completely correct when it comes to geography. I made a mental shortcut, as Polish Galicia Was concentrating around Krakow, which I suppose is an effect of a bias in which I’m not alone ;)

In such Zamość region is completely removed from “Galician cuisine” mentioning Jewish, Austria, Krakow and Ukraine. Weird omission (but many regional to Krakow dishes are described as “Galician” which I suppose is a reason.

So the misattribution risk is still there due to bias even though geographically it’s correct. I’d still rather preserve name, as the more to the west the worst the pierogi gets (which is a shame).

Re: Poland's Most Famous Dish: Pierogi

#63

Post by OfSanguineFire »

genman wrote: post #57
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. “Rus” is an ethnonym, of famously Scandinavian origin, used across the entire East Slavic area and was never something limited to people in now-Ukraine that people in now-Russia could “steal”. The Uralic- and Turkic-speaking peoples of the Middle Volga, for example, already called the neighboring Slavic-speaking populations “Rus” in the medieval era.

Actually no. "Rus" was meant to describe "all" East Slavic people, but Russians took it for themselves "only" and started to call Ukrainians "Little Russians" in sense of "Lesser Russians".

While what you say is true, it is irrelevant in the context of the discussion here about the popular misunderstanding of pierogi ruskie. This confusion is due to multiple factors than just “Russia stole”, including that the Ukrainian-language literary canon is centered around “Ukrainian” as the ethnonym, instead of making any attempt to preserve or revive the ethnonym “Rus”. While some Rusyns did maintain the ethnonym, other Rusyn speakers have preferred to identify with another ethnonym instead. If East Slavs other than Russians and Belarussians did not stand up for the ethnonym en masse, no surprise that peoples elsewhere no longer have the ability to distinguish.

Re: Poland's Most Famous Dish: Pierogi

#64

Post by lr1970 »

jcmeyrignac wrote: post #42

My polish mother called them "pirojki", which is the french term. She made 2 variations: - mashed potatoes and white cheese - rice and meat rolled in a cabbage leaf One of our neighbors offered one with mashed potatoes and apricot jam (I hated that). Too bad I'm gluten intolerant now.

> My polish mother called them "pirojki", which is the french term.

Well, French terms "pirojki" and "bistro" were transplanted words from Russian when they occupied Paris around 1814 or 1815 after the Napoleonic wars.

Re: Poland's Most Famous Dish: Pierogi

#65

Post by genman »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #63
genman wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually no. "Rus" was meant to describe "all" East Slavic people, but Russians took it for themselves "only" and started to call Ukrainians "Little Russians" in sense of "Lesser Russians".

While what you say is true, it is irrelevant in the context of the discussion here about the popular misunderstanding of pierogi ruskie . This confusion is due to multiple factors than just “Russia stole”, including that the Ukrainian-language literary canon is centered around “Ukrainian” as the ethnonym, instead of making any attempt to preserve or revive the ethnonym “Rus”. While some Rusyns did maintain the ethnon…

And there is reason why they focus on "Ukrainian" (borderland etymologically btw) instead of "Russian" or even "Little Russian". The therm "Little Rus" was first used for Kyiv in sense of it being the center of Rus - Rus proper and "Greater Rus" meant the wider area of their influence. Russians (as we know them today) managed to turn this around and made it a derogatory term.

Even more - the "Rus" became first to mean "Slavic Orthodox faith follower" and it covered multiple nations, even non-Slavic ones. The fact that Russians call themselves now by this name is not an accident.

Re: Poland's Most Famous Dish: Pierogi

#66

Post by genman »

acadapter wrote: post #61
genman wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually no. "Rus" was meant to describe "all" East Slavic people, but Russians took it for themselves "only" and started to call Ukrainians "Little Russians" in sense of "Lesser Russians".

Belarusians also call themselves a variation of "rus", obviously. And "Little Russia" is an old name of a geographical region (which somewhat corresponds to the traditionally Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine).

Old name with a very specific meaning. The therm "Little Rus" was first used for Kyiv in sense of it being the center of Rus - Rus proper and "Greater Rus" meant the wider area of their influence. Russians (as we know them today) managed to turn this around and made it a derogatory term.

Re: Poland's Most Famous Dish: Pierogi

#67

Post by genman »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #63
genman wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually no. "Rus" was meant to describe "all" East Slavic people, but Russians took it for themselves "only" and started to call Ukrainians "Little Russians" in sense of "Lesser Russians".

While what you say is true, it is irrelevant in the context of the discussion here about the popular misunderstanding of pierogi ruskie . This confusion is due to multiple factors than just “Russia stole”, including that the Ukrainian-language literary canon is centered around “Ukrainian” as the ethnonym, instead of making any attempt to preserve or revive the ethnonym “Rus”. While some Rusyns did maintain the ethnon…

But it is clear that Polish pierogi ruskie can't be Russian dumplings because Russian dumplings are pelmeni that are dumplings with meat. But the origin of these dumplings is not Russian either, as the word comes from the Udmurt language.

Re: Poland's Most Famous Dish: Pierogi

#68

Post by genman »

genman wrote: post #67
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, it is irrelevant in the context of the discussion here about the popular misunderstanding of pierogi ruskie . This confusion is due to multiple factors than just “Russia stole”, including that the Ukrainian-language literary canon is centered around “Ukrainian” as the ethnonym, instead of making any attempt to preserve or revive the ethnonym “Rus”. While some Rusyns did maintain the ethnon…

But it is clear that Polish pierogi ruskie can't be Russian dumplings because Russian dumplings are pelmeni that are dumplings with meat. But the origin of these dumplings is not Russian either, as the word comes from the Udmurt language.

Most likely this dish comes from Chinese cuisine through Mongol mediation.

Re: Poland's Most Famous Dish: Pierogi

#69

Post by OfSanguineFire »

genman wrote: post #65
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, it is irrelevant in the context of the discussion here about the popular misunderstanding of pierogi ruskie . This confusion is due to multiple factors than just “Russia stole”, including that the Ukrainian-language literary canon is centered around “Ukrainian” as the ethnonym, instead of making any attempt to preserve or revive the ethnonym “Rus”. While some Rusyns did maintain the ethnon…

And there is reason why they focus on "Ukrainian" (borderland etymologically btw) instead of "Russian" or even "Little Russian". The therm "Little Rus" was first used for Kyiv in sense of it being the center of Rus - Rus proper and "Greater Rus" meant the wider area of their influence. Russians (as we know them today) managed to turn this around and made it a derogatory term. Even more - the "Rus" became first to mea…

Again, what you say is true, but irrelevant in the context of this discussion thread. You look like you are searching for reasons to get upset, and you ought to calm down, take a deep breath, and consider that some of your interlocutors here are not your enemies.

You copy/pasted the same text in the reply to me as you did to another user in this thread. Please don’t do this, it is considered poor form on HN.

Re: Poland's Most Famous Dish: Pierogi

#70

Post by genman »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #69
genman wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there is reason why they focus on "Ukrainian" (borderland etymologically btw) instead of "Russian" or even "Little Russian". The therm "Little Rus" was first used for Kyiv in sense of it being the center of Rus - Rus proper and "Greater Rus" meant the wider area of their influence. Russians (as we know them today) managed to turn this around and made it a derogatory term. Even more - the "Rus" became first to mea…

Again, what you say is true, but irrelevant in the context of this discussion thread. You look like you are searching for reasons to get upset, and you ought to calm down, take a deep breath, and consider that some of your interlocutors here are not your enemies. You copy/pasted the same text in the reply to me as you did to another user in this thread. Please don’t do this, it is considered poor form on HN.

If anything then this personal attack is an example of poor quality. I'm far being upset. Maybe you are?

My comments try to explain why Ukrainians believe that Russians have stolen the "Rus" identity (from them) only for themselves.

While your comment is not entirely wrong, it is not precise enough to explain the whole story.

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