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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#61

Post by raganwald »

daenz wrote: post #44
alanh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Your sole contribution here is an earnest restatement of the dismissive line decried over and over in the linked piece? For shame. Edit in reply : Exactly how are these not all the same: “Hang in there,” “lighten up,” “change your perspective”?

How is what I said dismissive? I take her concern seriously, and I gave her my opinion of the best option for her health. I'm being a realist here, there is no "changing everyones behavior." There is only changing your perspective.

But there IS changing everyone's behaviour. In my lifetime, drunk driving and spoual abuse have become socially unacceptable. Overt racism has become socially unacceptable. Two women got engaged at centre-ice in a hockey game, a bastion of blue-collar society.

All these changes happened because people said, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!"

Re: "Lighten up"

#62

Post by larrys »

tptacek wrote: post #14
[deleted] wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

The point is not the one moron who does it; the point is having herself to escalate the issue to HR. She's the victim, but she has to play the role of the "problem". Try to think about what you'd do if you were in the room with a team member who made a comment like that. I know what I'd do, and I don't think it is an industry norm yet. We need to get there. If it helps you to see it: think about what you'd do if a te…

"Try to think about what you'd do if you were in the room with a team member who made a comment like that. I know what I'd do, and I don't think it is an industry norm yet."

I don't think things like this are clear cut like you are saying. What if you were unemployed for 2 years and then got a new job?

And for an entrepreneur? Say for some reason your company isn't doing well. You go and pitch a big account that could be "the big break" (that digs you out of a hole). The decision maker says something offensive. How willing will you be to stand up at that time when you have something big to loose?

Of course this is all a matter of degree obviously. Some people will definitely shy away from doing the right thing in almost all cases while others will go to their death defending what they believe. Even if it makes them homeless.

I remember being in a situation years ago at a company in Silicon Valley where the head of marketing (who is very well known and respected and teaches now believe me you've heard of him) was very offensive, parental, basically a dick. And of course nobody said anything at the time to challenge him. He was a primadonna and even his superiors didn't challenge him.

Re: "Lighten up"

#63

Post by kcunning »

alanh wrote: post #43

Thanks for this. I’m going to be more aware of these kind of things and more watchful to make sure I don’t contribute to this myself and more observant of those around me. Now, I have a question for the women here — sometimes I’ll hear a woman make the joke about belonging in the kitchen. Do you have insight into why that might happen sometimes and what the best sort of response would be?

Heh. I have a blog post about that as well! Basically, some women do really believe in 'traditional' roles for women. Maybe they've benefited from the current situation. Maybe it's part of their upbringing. If that's why they're making the comment, feel free to call them out on it.

If they're doing it to be ironic (I know I have), then you can probably shrug it off. Many of us have learned to be subversively snarky to put off the ones above.

Re: "Lighten up"

#64

Post by doki_pen »

I'm willing to bet that this type of behavior is a lot less likely in a start up. Something about assholes and corporate jobs. I'd like to think nothing like that would ever happen where I work. Does any women on hear have any first hand experience?

One thing that did bother me about the article though. She complained about being asked to cook, but on her about page it says she loves to cook and looks for any excuse. I'm sure she has a better idea of what her boss meant when he asked, but it makes me wonder if she has become oversensitive after so many bad experiences. I hope not.

Re: "Lighten up"

#65

Post by tptacek »

andywood wrote: post #54
benihana wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) Why? Because you would have beat his ass? Cause you would have shown him what happens when he comes on to your woman? You would have had an unkind word with him? Do you not believe your wife can handle herself? Trying to bash down a gender role by…

What about "Because he would have been angry about it, and sometimes we don't make the best decisions when we're angry?" Why go fishing for the least charitable reading?

That is what I meant, and why I said it was best for all involved. Thanks.

Re: "Lighten up"

#66

Post by logjam »

daenz wrote: post #22

Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin. EDIT>> I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have…

Uh, nobody is talking about changing any "natural" behavior (whatever in hell you expect that to mean), no matter how shit-headed.

Behave however you like outside the work environment.

But if you behave in a sexist or racist way in the work environment you can expect to be gone. Gone. Period.

Stop blaming the victim.

Re: "Lighten up"

#67

Post by ootachi »

doki_pen wrote: post #64

I'm willing to bet that this type of behavior is a lot less likely in a start up. Something about assholes and corporate jobs. I'd like to think nothing like that would ever happen where I work. Does any women on hear have any first hand experience? One thing that did bother me about the article though. She complained about being asked to cook, but on her about page it says she loves to cook and looks for any excuse.…

On the contrary, this happens all the time in startups. Think about it: a lot of startups consist of early 20-something males running everything.

Re: "Lighten up"

#68

Post by tptacek »

doki_pen wrote: post #64

I'm willing to bet that this type of behavior is a lot less likely in a start up. Something about assholes and corporate jobs. I'd like to think nothing like that would ever happen where I work. Does any women on hear have any first hand experience? One thing that did bother me about the article though. She complained about being asked to cook, but on her about page it says she loves to cook and looks for any excuse.…

Are we talking about the same startup field that puts people on stages at conferences with slide decks full of half naked women?

In any case: she's not asking for a holy jihad. She's not claiming to be the victim of a violent crime. All that needs to happen is for people to stop telling her to "lighten up".

Re: "Lighten up"

#69

Post by debacle »

ajross wrote: post #51
bh42222 wrote: post #37

I can't seem to find a study which showed that while only %3 of men ever make such comments, women involved in our community experience this a steady stream of subtle harassment. And the sad fact is that this is due to the lopsided share of men to women. If we had a 50/50 split some women would never hear such comments, some would hear then extremely rarely, while the percentage of men making them would stay the same…

Sorry, but if one person in 30 is being a jerk, that is a steady stream of subtle harassment. Most professionals deal with what, 60 people on a weekly basis? That's two jerks every week. And your math is off. Even if there was only one woman in tech anywhere, reducing 100% male interaction to 50% male interaction would only decrease the jerk count by a factor of two.

I would expect most professionals deal with fewer than 30 people on a weekly basis. Thinking back on my last four jobs, I don't know if I ever dealt with more than fifteen, and I was a project manager in two of those roles.

Re: "Lighten up"

#70

Post by sek »

aklemm wrote: post #21

Do you think reaching some critical mass of female developers (say 20%) will help prevent the problem? Perhaps an industry goal of reaching 20% female developers would be worthwhile (who would set such a goal?) These problems also exist in the boardroom and some have pointed out that it takes 3 women at the table in order for the rest of the room to treat them fairly. If it's just one, she's sidelined. If it's two, t…

The other factor is the stereotype in our media culture, look how Hollywood still pictures Nerds and technically versatile Women. A women who is good with computers and not a confident sexy goddess is automatically a looser.
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