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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#41

Post by jff »

crusso wrote: post #20
kcunning wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually a fairly baudy person. I've made sailors blush. I don't mind joking around at all. What irks me is when someone does something sexist, and I do speak up about it... and I'm told to 'lighten up'. If it was important enough for me to say something, then at least acknowledge that. Most of my co-workers are awesome. They'd never dream of making the dress comment, or tell me to go get their coffee. But it doe…

Fair enough. Is the place large enough to have a separate HR department? It's one thing to joke around, but another to make unwanted sexist comments. I've never known any HR folks who put up with the smallest bit of it. It's their job to get righteously pissed off at that kind of behavior.

HR should also be on your side there too because, at least in my company, HR is almost entirely staffed by women. So they quite possibly have their own experiences with sexism in the workplace and won't simply dismiss the problem.

Re: "Lighten up"

#42

Post by benihana »

tptacek wrote: post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

>(for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened)

Why? Because you would have beat his ass? Cause you would have shown him what happens when he comes on to your woman? You would have had an unkind word with him? Do you not believe your wife can handle herself?

Trying to bash down a gender role by reinforcing another is pretty silly.

Re: "Lighten up"

#43

Post by alanh »

Thanks for this. I’m going to be more aware of these kind of things and more watchful to make sure I don’t contribute to this myself and more observant of those around me.

Now, I have a question for the women here — sometimes I’ll hear a woman make the joke about belonging in the kitchen. Do you have insight into why that might happen sometimes and what the best sort of response would be?

Re: "Lighten up"

#44

Post by daenz »

alanh wrote: post #38
daenz wrote: post #22

Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin. EDIT>> I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have…

Really? Your sole contribution here is an earnest restatement of the dismissive line decried over and over in the linked piece? For shame. Edit in reply : Exactly how are these not all the same: “Hang in there,” “lighten up,” “change your perspective”?

How is what I said dismissive? I take her concern seriously, and I gave her my opinion of the best option for her health. I'm being a realist here, there is no "changing everyones behavior." There is only changing your perspective.

Re: "Lighten up"

#46

Post by maco »

crusso wrote: post #15
[deleted] wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Maybe... but she indicates that she's dealing with this issue constantly when she said, "It's probably not even the first thing I've had to deal with that day, unless you've gotten to me pretty early. " So if she works a 9-5 schedule and pretty early means, say, before 10 -- does that mean that she's dealing with maybe 4 sexually inappropriate comments on average per day?

Or one sexually inappropriate comment, one "fetch me coffee," one "apparently I'm a secretary now..." and one "we're all dudes here right?" type comment.

Re: "Lighten up"

#47

Post by huckfinnaafb »

benihana wrote: post #42
tptacek wrote: post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

>(for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) Why? Because you would have beat his ass? Cause you would have shown him what happens when he comes on to your woman? You would have had an unkind word with him? Do you not believe your wife can handle herself? Trying to bash down a gender role by…

Ridiculous. Coming to your partner's defense is not a matter of gender, but one of loyalty. Reverse the genders in this case and the threat still applies.

Re: "Lighten up"

#48

Post by logjam »

[deleted] wrote: post #28

[deleted]

Hmmm.

If any of her sexist male coworkers made jokes about "kitchen and stuff" in my office, I'd fire them on the spot for cause and take pains to make sure other organizations knew in detail about their behavior.

If you accused a victim of sexual harassment of "whining" in my office like you just did here on HN, I'd fire you on the spot and make sure other organizations knew in detail about your behavior.

Guess then we'd be sure that both you and they would have shut up about "kitchen and stuff" in the work environment, eh?

How about instead of being sexist, we men just do the right thing.

Re: "Lighten up"

#49

Post by daenz »

tptacek wrote: post #33
daenz wrote: post #22

Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin. EDIT>> I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have…

You're right. That is the healthiest approach for her. Which makes dealing with the bullshit that people fling at her for not having thicker skin all the more valuable. She could go along to get along, but hasn't, so everyone else won't have to go along with this crap too. Your "hopefully that won't come across as sexist" bit, by the way, belittles the concern. It's not just her concern; it's my concern too, and you'…

> You're right. That is the healthiest approach for her. Which makes dealing with the bullshit that people fling at her for not having thicker skin all the more valuable. She could go along to get along, but hasn't, so everyone else won't have to go along with this crap too.

Sorry, I'm a little tired today, could you rephrase this so it's easier to tell if you're being sarcastic? (serious question)

Re: "Lighten up"

#50

Post by bh42222 »

tptacek wrote: post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass;

Holly horror story!

Sadly I am not surprised to hear this, because I've heard many similar stories. And yet out of the very large number of male friends in the industry I have, including myself, none of us have ever or would ever do anything like that. The paradox here is answered by the fact that a tiny share of creeps will always be found in any sufficiently large set of humans. And the larger the set, the bigger the number of creeps.

Thus I think the only way to guarantee this kind of thing becomes part of the past is to radically increase the share of women in the industry.

Now, that doesn't prevent creeps from being creepy, but it does guarantee that the small number that they must be, can never be creepy to a large number of women.

This is kind of depressing as it basically assumes we can never completely get rid of creeps. But does anyone believe 100% proper behavior, from 100% of the people, 100% of the time is possible?

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