iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone • Hacker News Board

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#61

Post by candiodari » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:29 PM UTC

blokey wrote: post #33

voisin wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ideal status quo I disagree. Allow side loading of apps that still meet a threshold for safety, privacy, etc (determined through a program like you refer to), but eliminate the App Store cut of sales.

Who does the checking and verification that the apps are compliant with the “threshold for safety, privacy, etc”? Apple do this now, using the Apps that pay the 30% on digital purchases to fund everyone. If they no longer make a fee from those to cover every app (including all the free ones), who pays to validate the apps?

And what about the plenty of policies Apple has that I don't agree with and they've declared not their problem?

* their developer policies (as in my own apps, think business apps, playing around, ... and no the little play education app is not enough)

* file synchronization apps (syncing books, development/source code, apps, photos and music on my webserver, ios, android, and laptops through syncthing)

* emulation (in both directions). Both emulating other systems on the iPhone and emulating the iPhone/ios elsewhere (strange how they have always allowed and even facilitated this for macos, but on either iphone or ipad ...)

* their policy about 30% cut on anything sold through apps. Sorry, but that's just going too far

* their charging policies (meaning what their devices allow for charging and how fast. And frankly 90% of the problem I have with their policy on charging is how complicated it is. If they merely instituted a rule "if it's apple equipment, it just works as fast as possible", that'd already be a big improvement)

At this point I'm very inclined to say, not getting the 30% cut and still having to check ... is Apple's problem, not mine. How about we treat it the way apple treats their customers' problems? At this point I don't care about whatever problems being reasonable presents for Apple.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#62

Post by wahnfrieden » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:30 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #28

wahnfrieden wrote: post #5

EU only. Not in the land of the free.

This assumes facts not in evidence. The change is being forced by EU law, but it would take more effort to geo-fence it than to make the change globally. Not to mention the fact that it would be effort in the direction of a PR loss. No, the more Apple way to spin this is as a positive for everyone. As if they had the idea the entire time and just now figured out how to make it work.

It's been previously reported, you missed the evidence you say doesn't exist (you frame your ignorance as knowledge of absence)

>Apple is only planning to implement sideloading support in Europe.

See also the language about this being the start of a rollout of sideloading in other reports - ie EU only. This will be driven by courts, Apple hasn't and won't be charitable. Apple spins every incremental change as a positive win to cover PR instead of admitting partial defeat.

Btw Apple already today restricts loads of services and content based on region, you should look into that if you think that's a challenge for them

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#63

Post by jamil7 » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

Edd314159 wrote: post #56

TexanFeller wrote: post #10

I'm dreading this. I want privacy hostile companies like Facebook to have to comply with the app store rules and respect system settings relating to privacy. As a user, I'm thrilled when Apple wields its big stick to stop big tech companies from overreaching. Before there was a bit of a compromise, I could use evil apps with some peace of mind that they wouldn't do something egregious. Now I suspect evil apps just wo…

I agree, and the idea of a sideload-able iOS makes me very uneasy. I like the idea of Apple aligning itself with the user to protect me and, more importantly, my tech-unsavvy friends and family, from scams, data-hoarding apps, and just generally crappy software. I don't mind that they take a portion of revenue in return for providing that platform (30% feels too much, but you can't argue that it should be zero). Unfo…

> Sideloading is full of risks, and I don't love it. But it's at least a little bit of competition to push Apple towards make the App Store useful again.

As someone who develops for the platform, I tend to agree, I'll probably never distribute apps with sideloading, but I think ultimately it's a good thing. I'd also be happy if it attracts more interest and developers to the platform who were previously turned off by the App Store process and Apple Tax.

I also build for macOS, which has always allowed sideloading and don't see any major issues with it there.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#64

Post by macintux » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:33 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #49

macintux wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More attractive to giant social media companies who thrive on data collection is almost never going to be in favor of the user.

Like TikTok and Facebook, both of whom already collect and process data serverside? If we want those things seriously addressed, we should be lobbying governments to fix it. Private companies are obligated to serve the government and shareholders first, then address your privacy somewhere after that.

Apple is serving their shareholders by offering users a safe platform. It’s a marketing feature.

I don’t disagree that government should be regulating this, these aren’t mutually exclusive options.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#65

Post by nerdjon » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

hwbehrens wrote: post #57

smoldesu wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but overtime I no longer have the choice to avoid these alternate stores or to side load Maybe Apple should update the terms of the App Store to be more competitive/attractive then.

Per the parent comment, the terms they would have to add to be competitive in this scenario would be "Developers can blatantly and horrendously mine all sensitive data from users." which, while they would be appreciated by many businesses that want to provide apps to iOS users, may not be as desirable to the users themselves. Essentially, what I believe that parent comment is calling out is that Apple is currently (v…

YES!

And not just privacy but also shady practices around canceling and managing subscriptions and others.

There is a very good reason I bought my parents iOS devices and the app store is the biggest one.

Even as a technical person myself this is a big selling point for me to have an iPhone.

Does it give a lot of control to apple and have they blocked some apps I wish they could allow, Yes!

But I will take that over a future (that I really don't see being an "IF" since we know developers like Facebook will jump at the chance to be shady, and they could just make it easier for others to follow) where the choice is made for me by an app not being available on the store.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#66

Post by scarface74 » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:36 PM UTC

Vespasian wrote: post #21

TexanFeller wrote: post #10

I'm dreading this. I want privacy hostile companies like Facebook to have to comply with the app store rules and respect system settings relating to privacy. As a user, I'm thrilled when Apple wields its big stick to stop big tech companies from overreaching. Before there was a bit of a compromise, I could use evil apps with some peace of mind that they wouldn't do something egregious. Now I suspect evil apps just wo…

I understand your concern and share some of them. However the solution to overreaching unaccountable private cooperations cannot be to hand all the power to another private unaccountable company. Apple is venturing into advertising and that'll tempt them to weaken privacy protections sooner or later. Additionally their app store rules went far beyond enforcing security and privacy. They gave themselves an advantage a…

> They gave themselves an advantage and removed competitors for commercial reasons.

Which competitor has been “removed”?

> Regulate tightly what apple/google are allowed to do with their stores (e.g. like a common carrier)

So there shouldn’t be any rules are quality controls on what should be allowed?

> The elected EU legislative took some points from both approaches AFTER the free market failed to implement a meaningful competition for central app stores.

Yes, the EU is the model of smart regulations when it comes to tech. That’s the reason that it has such a thriving tech ecosystem.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#67

Post by vbezhenar » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:36 PM UTC

hu3 wrote: post #47

vbezhenar wrote: post #22

For many years, everyone who wanted to sideload apps on an iPhone has been able to do so. I am unsure about what makes this so exciting.

How?

For most convenience you need to have developer subscription. Then you can use something like sideloadly.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#68

Post by nerdjon » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:40 PM UTC

LapsangGuzzler wrote: post #50

nerdjon wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you and I hate that you are being downvoted. People love to say this is about choice for the consumer but it really is not going to be. My fear is that the choice will be taken away from my by companies that are no longer able to engage in shady behavior on iOS. Things like trying to collect all my data, forcing me into their billing system, shady subscriptions (like how I can cancel or reminders of it b…

You can never assume that one company represents your interests better than another: the solution to reducing addictive patterns is to enable other developers to build more privacy-oriented and dark-pattern-busting apps (one sec is a good example of this). Apple makes certain aspects of the phone addictive as well (i.e. the app tray that can't be disabled, Screen Time is a joke for actually trying to restrict how muc…

I agree that we should be talking about the addition problem of these apps.

But I reference these specifically as being the gateway to more bad behavior.

The idea of Facebook being able to introduce their own App Store for example that would allow other developers to engage in the same shady behavior.

I only mention those apps since I feel like they have the addicted user base to be able to pull it off in a meaningful way, but I don't mean that those apps are specifically my concern.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#69

Post by scarface74 » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:44 PM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #61

blokey wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who does the checking and verification that the apps are compliant with the “threshold for safety, privacy, etc”? Apple do this now, using the Apps that pay the 30% on digital purchases to fund everyone. If they no longer make a fee from those to cover every app (including all the free ones), who pays to validate the apps?

And what about the plenty of policies Apple has that I don't agree with and they've declared not their problem? * their developer policies (as in my own apps, think business apps, playing around, ... and no the little play education app is not enough) * file synchronization apps (syncing books, development/source code, apps, photos and music on my webserver, ios, android, and laptops through syncthing) * emulation (i…

Points 1 and 2 don’t really make sense (ie doesn’t really make a point at all). What exactly are you saying?

> their policy about 30% cut on anything sold through apps. Sorry, but that's just going too far

Only things digital items. 80% of all App Store revenue comes from in app purchases of loot boxes and pay to win games (according to the Epic trial).

> their charging policies (meaning what their devices allow for charging and how fast

What does this even mean.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#70

Post by zamadatix » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:46 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #34

overthrow wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're dreading giving other people the freedom to make one choice, and yourself the freedom to make a different choice (yours being the default option from the factory btw), and everyone gets the privacy/control tradeoff they want?

Software isn't fungible and right now today you have the ability to install facebook with app store restrictions on iOS and without on Android. If FB pulls from the app store that choice is taken away.

Play has restrictions they are just less strict than the App Store. Similarly on iOS if people are choosing iOS for this vetting then it follows Facebook would not be able to migrate to being a 3rd party app just because the option is there. All else being equal it's actually quite hard to get most users to use anything but the default store anyways, as is seen on Android.