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Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

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Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#61

Post by sophacles »

sclarisse wrote: post #22
candiddevmike wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make these companies government owned and operate them like the post office.

Not sure if adding sovereign immunity to the situation would help. Managers take shortcuts to get ahead in a lot of situations; consider, for instance, Chernobyl. It’s one of the reasons I think the “prioritizing profits” narrative rings hollow. Any profits they would have preserved by not-stopping for the first hotbox detector? Already burned by the costs of the closure and the response so far. If anything, chasing…

I dunno, that seems to ignore the fact that norfolk southern, the operator of this train, a profitable company for quite a while now, literally lobbied to reduce the hazardous materials safety requirements because they weren't making enough profits.

It also seems to ignore that the same company participated in claiming that the workers' often stated concerns for safety were just people being greedy and that they would lose some profit if they implemented safer conditions.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#62

Post by iinnPP »

sclarisse wrote: post #28
ruined wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's hard to find good news coverage of the actual details of the dispute, but it seems to be fairly basic staff reductions intended to increase margin (already historically massive) the keyword to search is "precision scheduled railroading" as that's the management term recent nymag from last year's attempted strike https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/11/rail-strike-why-the-... wsws coverage has labor complaint det…

PSR is worth some controversy but the big problem here was ordering the train to proceed after a hot-box detector found a hot axle (saying that if it’s really a problem the next one will detect it, which it did, but it was too late to stop). That’s just bypassing the safeties deliberately.

And nobody will even go to jail for that. Maybe a adult summer camp, but probably not.

Guess what will happen again?

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#63

Post by JustSomeNobody »

DoneWithAllThat wrote: post #51
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should all be concerned no matter the radius. This will happen elsewhere if nothing is done to address the issues. And right now, far too many people are silent on this.

[flagged]

Seriously? Is that the new head in the sand argument, "That's AI!"?

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#64

Post by dotancohen »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #8
Frost1x wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect we're seeing more and more of these issues due to corner cutting in various industries. Air travel has already been a tight margin industry and take at look at all the air related issues we've seen recently, from FAA systems down to mass cancelations due to infrastructure to the recent runway conflicts and accidents we've seen. Speaking from anecdotal experience, over the years this constant push for more c…

Industries like airlines and railroad have the problem where you can't cut the corners that can be tastefully and carefully cut because once upon a time someone went overboard, hands were wrung, and a law or rule was made. So then when you're squeezed you cut some corner no sane person would cut with predictable results. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that the railroad had implemented the XKCD 28hr day or something…

Slightly OT, but the XKCD 28 hour week is terrific. I've twice tan a test week using it, and I was more refreshed, and got more work done, than any other week. I also enjoyed more sunshine too.

I'm sure that it's not for everybody, but it is a terrific solution to _some_ lifestyle issues. Not to mention the drop in peak resource usage (electric, roads, etc) if people were to stagger it in three shifts.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#65

Post by Sniffnoy »

dcist wrote: post #20
lylejantzi3rd wrote: post #17

Here's something for your daily dose of "that's strange:" In 2021 residents of East Palestine, Ohio were extras in filming a train derailment scene for the movie "White Noise"(2022). "Ratner, 37, is in a traffic jam scene, sitting in a line of cars trying to evacuate after a freight train collided with a tanker truck, triggering an explosion that fills the air with dangerous toxins." https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/11/he…

This odd fact will spawn thousands of conspiracy videos and crisis actor accusations. Cue ominous music…

The term you'll actually hear from the conspiracy theorists regarding this is "predictive programming".

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#66

Post by BuyMyBitcoins »

mschuster91 wrote: post #46
bko wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's state controlled and an accident happens and there is a govt investigation, do you think it'll be more stern than one on a private company? Do you think enforcement of rules is stricter when enforced in house? I don't see the reasoning as to why state run services would be somehow safer. The state should set out the rules and enforce strictly

> If it's state controlled and an accident happens and there is a govt investigation, do you think it'll be more stern than one on a private company? Do you think enforcement of rules is stricter when enforced in house? At least it's easier to hold public officials accountable - you can get rid of them by voting - than to hold companies accountable.

>”At least it's easier to hold public officials accountable - you can get rid of them by voting - than to hold companies accountable.”

I disagree because most of the public officials who would be accountable are appointed to these positions, not directly elected. The representatives we elect - mayor, house representative, senator, etc. - all have a good degree of distance from direct accountability.

Plus, I feel like regular partisan politics and gerrymandering also make accountability much harder to achieve.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#67

Post by ruined »

sclarisse wrote: post #28
ruined wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's hard to find good news coverage of the actual details of the dispute, but it seems to be fairly basic staff reductions intended to increase margin (already historically massive) the keyword to search is "precision scheduled railroading" as that's the management term recent nymag from last year's attempted strike https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/11/rail-strike-why-the-... wsws coverage has labor complaint det…

PSR is worth some controversy but the big problem here was ordering the train to proceed after a hot-box detector found a hot axle (saying that if it’s really a problem the next one will detect it, which it did, but it was too late to stop). That’s just bypassing the safeties deliberately.

yes, there seems to be a lot of management pressure to disregard risks in order to keep schedule.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#68

Post by iinnPP »

Spooky23 wrote: post #41
sclarisse wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if adding sovereign immunity to the situation would help. Managers take shortcuts to get ahead in a lot of situations; consider, for instance, Chernobyl. It’s one of the reasons I think the “prioritizing profits” narrative rings hollow. Any profits they would have preserved by not-stopping for the first hotbox detector? Already burned by the costs of the closure and the response so far. If anything, chasing…

Remember the profit gets realized upfront and benefits the leadership. The disaster is the future guy‘a problem.

Surely related to another story on HN right now about long term and short term estimates.

Like these powerful people can't look through history at what comes when the line is finally crossed for enough people.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#69

Post by dsfyu404ed »

sclarisse wrote: post #28
ruined wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's hard to find good news coverage of the actual details of the dispute, but it seems to be fairly basic staff reductions intended to increase margin (already historically massive) the keyword to search is "precision scheduled railroading" as that's the management term recent nymag from last year's attempted strike https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/11/rail-strike-why-the-... wsws coverage has labor complaint det…

PSR is worth some controversy but the big problem here was ordering the train to proceed after a hot-box detector found a hot axle (saying that if it’s really a problem the next one will detect it, which it did, but it was too late to stop). That’s just bypassing the safeties deliberately.

Those were line level employees, not fat cat MBAs. It'll be real interesting to see what sort of incentives those people were and weren't subject to.

You don't just order a train that might be on fire to keep going unless your equipment is chronically faulty or you are really, really, really sure it won't be your ass. Sounds like a "when everyone is responsible nobody is" situation.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#70

Post by iinnPP »

colpabar wrote: post #37
h2odragon wrote: post #3

Recall when there was an imminent Rail Workers' strike in the news? Which Congress bravely stepped in and prevented? Weren't safety issues like this part of the workers' complaints? There were multiple sightings of axles on fire before the accident: https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2023/02/10/...

Don’t worry - norfolk southern, the company responsible, gave the town a whopping $25k to help out. Five dollars for everyone! https://finance.yahoo.com/news/norfolk-southern-giving-25-00...

Whoever did that should hide. It's so insulting that it must be dangerous.
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