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Hydrochloric acid is more complicated than you think

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61–70 of 78 posts

Re: Hydrochloric acid is more complicated than you think

#61
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember, it’s stain LESS not stain FEEE. It merely stains less than regular steel. Not that it is unable to stain at all. Haha I remember when I first realised that.

> Haha I remember when I first realised that. It seemed like you were making a joke until you talked about "realizing" something. So on the off chance you weren't, you should know that "___less" and "___ free" have identical meaning. The -less suffix means "present in the quantity zero", not "present in a quantity which is smaller than some unspecified other quantity".

> The -less suffix means "present in the quantity zero"

Prescriptively, sure, maybe, why not. Descriptively? Nah. Otherwise anyone using the world "endless" would be lying because nothing can be "endless". Most people using "penniless", the same, although some people may truly be "without a penny" (depending on your definition of "having a penny" - do material assets count?)

Re: Hydrochloric acid is more complicated than you think

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Haha I remember when I first realised that. It seemed like you were making a joke until you talked about "realizing" something. So on the off chance you weren't, you should know that "___less" and "___ free" have identical meaning. The -less suffix means "present in the quantity zero", not "present in a quantity which is smaller than some unspecified other quantity".

> The -less suffix means "present in the quantity zero" Prescriptively, sure, maybe, why not. Descriptively? Nah. Otherwise anyone using the world "endless" would be lying because nothing can be "endless". Most people using "penniless", the same, although some people may truly be "without a penny" (depending on your definition of "having a penny" - do material assets count?)

No, descriptively that is what it means. You're trying to argue that people who say "the best thing since sliced bread" actually mean something different by the word "since" than everyone else, or indeed than what they themselves mean in other contexts, but that is obvious nonsense. People make false hyperbolic claims all the time; hyperbole is not expected to be true.

Re: Hydrochloric acid is more complicated than you think

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 99.9% of acids found outside of chemistry labs and industrial settings are no more dangerous or destructive (as acids) than soda pop, lime juice, or human vomit (all of which are acids). > The reason is that some far stronger and/or more dangerous acids occasionally show up in household settings. Example: "battery acid", splashed on the skin, can cause horrific & life-long damage in seconds. I had to look up "batte…

> "The destructiveness of the solution is not determined by the acid [...] it is determined by the acid's concentration." I'd say you're at the "know enough to be dangerous" phase. The destructiveness of concentrated H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) to flesh is at least as much due to its extremely exothermic hydrophilic behavior as to its low pH. Hydrofluoric acid is typically weak (pH-wise) as an acid, but is a horrific delay…

I'm struggling to see the relationship between my comment and your response. For example, you emphasize pH heavily, but I don't see that I mentioned it anywhere. Hydrofluoric acid will have all kinds of horrible effects on you, sure, but it can only have those effects if it's there. Whether it's there, and to what degree, is exactly what concentration measures. Aqua regia's ability to dissolve gold is unrelated to its pH. Does that mean it can't dissolve gold? Why bring up pH?

What point are you trying to make in response to the observation "99.9% of acids found outside a lab may be no more dangerous or destructive than human vomit, but that isn't particularly meaningful since the acid in human vomit is highly dangerous and destructive"?

Re: Hydrochloric acid is more complicated than you think

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This video seems to confuse semiconductors with "materials with a negative thermal coefficient of resistivity". Saying "this gets more conductive as you heat it up" does not a semiconductor make, as far as I understand.

Why not? It's not practical for traditional uses of semiconductors, but it has a mechanism to control conductivity.

Because then you'd need to call resistors "semiconductors" coz they also change resistance with temperature and that's not useful to anyone.

Re: Hydrochloric acid is more complicated than you think

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do the numbers mean?(slightly confused because your description of 316 makes it sound generally more badass than 304, but I can’t fit that in sequence with 430 being the worst).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_steel_grades#Stainless_ste...

soooo only the first digit in number matters ? rest look pretty randomly assigned

Re: Hydrochloric acid is more complicated than you think

#67
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ph.D. in chemistry here. The stoichiometry which factors into the definition of pH is H_{2}O H^{+} + OH^{-} which actually includes the activity of proton - that's H^{+} multiplied by a coefficient that reflects the ionic strength of the solution and in non-zero outside of really pure 18 mega-ohm RO water - but that's beyond the scope of this. I will note that your balanced equation is in fact valid, as it includes b…

I don't think the GP is saying that H+ and H3O+ are literally synonymous, but rather that "H+" in the context of an aqueous solution is actually shorthand for a hydronium ion and not a solvated proton (with an H2O implied on the other side of the equation for balance). My recollection from high school and undergrad chemistry is that an unassociated proton is very highly energetically unfavorable in solution relative…

I've always known protons to do things like no other particle.

I agree that H+ in solution is going to make temporary friends with whatever it finds in abundance until it comes in contact with something it can react less irreversibly with.

To build from fundamentals, what do we know?

Naked protons really are aggressive. Yikes. H+.

Water is just protonated OH-, it's neutral. pH 7 by definition.

The more the H+ outnumbers the OH-, the more aggressive the proton action.

If you water down HCl enough the solution strength will eventually fall into the narrow band known as "measurable pH", from pH 1 (quite acidic) to pH 7 (neutral).

pH numbers higher than 7 (all the way up to 14) are alkaline, not within reach for HCl in plain water.

It's good to have NIST-traceable pH measurements from precision electrochemical readings using pH-sensitive glass electrodes with temperature compensation. This is a type of glass that has a slight change in electrical properties according to the type and strength of ions it is exposed to, highly sensitive to aqueous H+ in particular. The range of readings is highly amplified by the instrument which is then calibrated logarithmically to the pH scale using known solutions. The known pH solutions correspond to the reference H+ concentrations according to the fundamental pH equations, without dependence on electrochemical measurement themselves.

Not quite so good using the proper pH-sensitive dyes which have been discovered useful or invented over the ages. These are strong enough pigments at visible wavelengths such that they can still be detected by eye (or spectrometer) at very low concentrations, while also possessing the property of noticeably changing color wavelength in response to degree of protonation of the dye molecules. These have been around since before electrochemistry.

In non-aqueous solutions, neither the electrodes nor the dyes behave exactly like they do with aqueous work, and I don't think the protons do either. The electrodes can be extremely useful non-aqueously, but it's not actually pH we're measuring any more. Plus different solvents are naturally going to have different water contents, sometimes whether intended or not.

And there are other things besides dyes which have visible indications of aggressiveness, like polyurethane and metals of many types. Some may take longer to notice than others, but eventually you conclude, yup, this stuff has been attacked by acid.

You will find the same number of molecules of HCl per liter of water will not be nearly as aggressive as the same number of molecules per liter in some non-aqueous solvents.

At other times it will be the water itself that is required for acid behavior to be fully as expected.

The best non-aqueous mixtures for any one purpose are probably not the ones commercially available. So you should be capable of coming up with your own.

Don't try this at home.

Re: Hydrochloric acid is more complicated than you think

#68
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? It's not practical for traditional uses of semiconductors, but it has a mechanism to control conductivity.

Because then you'd need to call resistors "semiconductors" coz they also change resistance with temperature and that's not useful to anyone.

In any normal resistor, which is made from a conductive material, the resistance increases with the temperature, because the "friction" between the electricity carriers and the atomic lattice increases.

Only in resistors made of semiconductors, i.e. in NTC thermistors, the resistance decreases with the temperature.

The difference between a conductor and a semiconductor is that in the former the concentration of the carriers is constant, while in the latter the concentration of the carriers can be changed by various means, e.g. by temperature, by light, by impurities, by corpuscular radiation, by electrical fields, by contact with other materials, and by other means.

In most intrinsic semiconductors, the carrier concentration increases with the temperature, therefore the resistance decreases with the temperature.

This is a valid method to determine that a material is a semiconductor, even if false negatives are possible, when a material is a semiconductor though its resistance increases with the temperature.

Re: Hydrochloric acid is more complicated than you think

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water ice is a semiconductor and can be doped, like silicon, to make transistors. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o61wtb7dSRA

This video seems to confuse semiconductors with "materials with a negative thermal coefficient of resistivity". Saying "this gets more conductive as you heat it up" does not a semiconductor make, as far as I understand.

Any material that "gets more conductive as you heat it up" is a semiconductor, unless its conductivity remains negligible, in which case it is an insulator.

Not all semiconductors "get more conductive as you heat them up". A counterexample is provided by heavily doped semiconductors.

Re: Hydrochloric acid is more complicated than you think

#70
post #8
post #5

One thing I always wonder is what exactly does HCl dissolve in the stomach, and how does it not destroy the nutritional value of the food?

Low pH is needed for pepsin to work. Also to kill some pathogens. Doesn’t affect nutritional components of ingestion eg amino acids, vitamins and lipids.

The animals which are scavengers have more acidic stomachs than those which eat live prey, and the latter have more acidic stomachs than those which are herbivores.

This is consistent with the supposition that low pH is needed to kill some pathogens.

An interesting fact is that humans have a stomach pH in the scavenger range. This is consistent with the supposition that, before becoming the most successful hunters of this planet, for a long time humans had been mainly scavengers, who scared the other scavengers and predators by throwing sticks and stones, and then consumed completely the leftovers by breaking the long bones and the skulls with stones.

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