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Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

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Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#61

Post by tomjen3 »

alex_c wrote: post #8

There's no mention of the flip side of this. I only have one position, and I interview multiple candidates, several of which are good. If I make you an offer, I can't afford to sit around waiting for weeks for you to make up your mind: if you turn it down, chances are my other candidates are already gone, and now I have to start the whole process again from scratch. Edit: fair enough, I missed that Joel was talking a…

Then make sure you all do the interviews reasonably close to each other.

Seriously I made so many mistakes getting my first job that the next time I am going to assume every company is out to rape me, at least financially, properly emotionally.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#63

Post by nupark2 »

orijing wrote: post #52
axiom wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you think of a company that made someone an offer and a few weeks before the start of the internship said "you know, we actually found someone better so we won't be hiring you after all." Both the company and the employee should be honest. Period. Anything else and you're being an asshole who's screwing people over. Exploding offers are there 95% of the time because a company has a schedule to follow and c…

I understand that we (on Hacker News) tend to come from a startup perspective, so it makes sense where you're coming from. But in the context that Joel was describing, that's not a valid comparison. Surely Joel isn't recommending dropping a startup of one founder using this tactic (it would be better to say no early). He specifically mentioned Microsoft as an example. If you as an individual got your offer rescinded…

If it's wrong, it's wrong, whether you do it to your best friend or your worst enemy.

A big company can absorb the cost of a schedule slip or missing an opportunity to hire a great alternative candidate.

That doesn't make it any more right to break your word.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#64

Post by the_one_smiley »

http://kuznets.harvard.edu/~aroth/jama.html

Offers with an acceptance deadline simplify life for the employer, so they do that. Refusing to accept the deadlines or reneging on acceptances simplifies life for the applicants, so they do that. Employers can respond by rescinding offers when someone better comes along, which applicants can counter by accepting and holding as many offers as possible. Employers then realize they must make multiple offers for each position with the intention of rescinding those made to applicants worse than the best one which accepted. Applicants likewise renege on every acceptance except the one from their most favored employer amongst the employers that extended them offers. The time scales on which this all happens compress until it is essentially one big chaotic race condition. When everyone is predictably acting in support of their own interests, the outcome is also somewhat predictable.

It's interesting to observe the tech intern labor market retrace the path that other candidate / organization matching processes, ranging from sorority rush to medical residency applications, have gone down. The amusing bit is that the apparent endgame, where both sides submit ranklists to a central clearinghouse that uses some form of the stable marriage algorithm, sounds like something a tech company came up with.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#65

Post by nupark2 »

cletus wrote: post #51

A lot of people are viewing this from the employer, which I guess makes a certain amount of sense, but as a potential employee that's not your problem . The simple fact is that as an employee you should be looking out for yourself. Period. That means pushing back on a hard deadline that will exclude you from trying to get your dream (or simply preferred) job. If the company won't budge and you're unsure of your prosp…

A lot of people are viewing this from the employer ...

I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period.

For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they might not (and I've had it happen where they haven't).

If a company rescinds their offer due to no fault of your own (e.g, misrepresentation), then it's just as unethical as you rescinding your acceptance of the offer.

If you're not sure, then simply do not accept the offer. They'll either wait (or they won't), but it's the only ethically sound decision available, and you will avoid the possibility of making a bad name for yourself.

I'd certainly remember someone that accepted an offer and then backed out without cause. Nobody responsible does this.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#66

Post by herf »

This was a really common tactic at Microsoft back in the 90s, which is probably why Joel is familiar with it. It worked on me--I took an internship with MSFT instead of Apple, because Microsoft gave me under a week to respond, and the recruiting manager at Apple was on a week's vacation.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#67

Post by jarek »

orijing wrote: post #52
axiom wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you think of a company that made someone an offer and a few weeks before the start of the internship said "you know, we actually found someone better so we won't be hiring you after all." Both the company and the employee should be honest. Period. Anything else and you're being an asshole who's screwing people over. Exploding offers are there 95% of the time because a company has a schedule to follow and c…

I understand that we (on Hacker News) tend to come from a startup perspective, so it makes sense where you're coming from. But in the context that Joel was describing, that's not a valid comparison. Surely Joel isn't recommending dropping a startup of one founder using this tactic (it would be better to say no early). He specifically mentioned Microsoft as an example. If you as an individual got your offer rescinded…

If a startup needed that one extra employee, they wouldn't have made the starting date months in advance and the decision period three days.

For that matter, I would not advocate signing for a job starting months away at a company that can be made or broken by one junior level employee unless your risk tolerance is extremely high.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#68

Post by [deleted] »

orijing wrote: post #52
axiom wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you think of a company that made someone an offer and a few weeks before the start of the internship said "you know, we actually found someone better so we won't be hiring you after all." Both the company and the employee should be honest. Period. Anything else and you're being an asshole who's screwing people over. Exploding offers are there 95% of the time because a company has a schedule to follow and c…

I understand that we (on Hacker News) tend to come from a startup perspective, so it makes sense where you're coming from. But in the context that Joel was describing, that's not a valid comparison. Surely Joel isn't recommending dropping a startup of one founder using this tactic (it would be better to say no early). He specifically mentioned Microsoft as an example. If you as an individual got your offer rescinded…

[deleted]

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#69

Post by jfpoole »

codeonfire wrote: post #3
thurn wrote: post #2

There ought to be a database of companies that give offers with very short expirations. Not necessarily condemning the practice, but it would be good to know. Yelp, for example, routinely gives offers with a 5-day acceptance window.

This is every company. I've never heard of any company giving more than 3-5 days. If you work for a big corp, you know how unbelievably insecure management is, any delay at all would make them look very bad politically. When a hiring manager's whole career is based on appearances, which it usually is, a week is an eternity.

Sometimes the insecurity is justified. I've seen former managers extend offers only to retract them two days later when the staff requisition was retracted by upper management. If you're on a project and you need people this encourages you to hire as quickly as possible.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#70

Post by pavel_lishin »

nupark2 wrote: post #65
cletus wrote: post #51

A lot of people are viewing this from the employer, which I guess makes a certain amount of sense, but as a potential employee that's not your problem . The simple fact is that as an employee you should be looking out for yourself. Period. That means pushing back on a hard deadline that will exclude you from trying to get your dream (or simply preferred) job. If the company won't budge and you're unsure of your prosp…

A lot of people are viewing this from the employer ... I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they m…

> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period.

It gets tricky. If you're a publicly traded company, do you prioritize keeping your implicit word to your stockholders, or to the guy who might or might not come work for you, maybe?

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