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Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

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Re: Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

#61
I almost chocked on my cereal after reading the first paragraph of this article. The author appeared to be really suggesting that a person should consider taking a active duty stint in a war zone to learn things one can't else where to further their career goals? I hope some kid isn't reading this propaganda. War is not like playing the Call of Duty 4 game!

I am thinking Dan Cross, the Google engineer would have had a different perspective on his active duty time if his legs had been blown off... Really, there are other things one can do to learn the same lessens. Say like the Peace Corps...

Re: Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

#62

(I hope I get the tone right on this. I don't mean to insult any person or institution) The interesting thing here is how military service is respected to such a high degree, bordering on worship, in the United States. Other countries have voluntary armies too,and yes soldiers get some respect as people who do a necessary and dangerous job, but you don't see the "start your conversation with "Thank You for your servi…

Others have stated some of the big reasons why service members get so much respect: they risk their lives for their country, they give up some of their Constitutional rights (although they also gain some extra rights, such as Article 31 rights), and they generally accept lower compensation than they might get on the outside (still true, but not nearly as true as it used to be). I would add another reason: they accept…

> Spaniards can feel united in the fact that they are all Spaniards

I see your point, but Spain is not the best example. See: the Basques, Catalans, etc...

Re: Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

#63

(I hope I get the tone right on this. I don't mean to insult any person or institution) The interesting thing here is how military service is respected to such a high degree, bordering on worship, in the United States. Other countries have voluntary armies too,and yes soldiers get some respect as people who do a necessary and dangerous job, but you don't see the "start your conversation with "Thank You for your servi…

On Cemetery Ridge at Gettysburg you can find a monument to a company of 200 Minnesotans. They probably couldn't articulate their motivations, they were probably, to the extent they cared, pro-slavery. These men attacked a formation of 10,000 Confederates, holding an otherwise fatal gap for the scant minutes needed for reinforcement. Lincoln later explained that they fought "so that government of the people, for the people, by the people shall not perish from this earth". Those that heard Lincoln probably felt he explained something they felt but couldn't say. But there weren't many of them, the company suffered 90% casualties in five minutes.

Those losses couldn't have surprised them, the company complement was the survivors of a 30% casualty rate on the prior day.

Previously George Washington caused a Continental Army, which had not been _paid_, to resign and disperse in submission to a frankly contemptible Continental Congress.

America's is government by reasoned principles, but that reason sometimes seems little more than explication of some generous impulse of freedom and justice. In the American soldier we've seen that impulse cause young men to lay down their lives, and strong men lay down arms rather than pursue their just complaints. Only later did they understand the logical necessity of their sacrifice for human freedom.

The justice of America's wars isn't always so clear, but that is not the fault of the soldier, who _must_ subordinate his own judgment to that of his countrymen lest he himself become a tyrant.

Until the lion lies down with the lamb, societies will need armies. Democracies will need armies with power to meet tyrants without using that power to become tyrants. If America's first miracle was democratic government, its second is the emergence of soldiers willing to die for it. I don't know what impulses brought forward such soldiers among us, but I suspect those same impulses today inspire our reverence for them. I know I'll always regret that I didn't take my turn at a lousy but absolutely necessary job.

Re: Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

#64
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Also, there is still a lingering guilt over how servicemen were treated returning home from Vietnam." You might be interested to read a book called "The Spitting Image": "The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam" is a 1998 book by sociologist Jerry Lembcke. The book argues that the common claim that American soldiers were spat upon and insulted by anti-war protesters upon returning home from the Vi…

I have several friends and relatives who personally received this exact treatment. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the Vietnam veterans I personally know did. When my father left the service, he went to work for Pan Am and spent his first few years flying troops between the U.S. and Vietnam, and witnessed this sort of behavior on a regular basis. My sampling is hardly large enough to be representative, but I th…

"I have several friends and relatives who personally received this exact treatment. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the Vietnam veterans I personally know did. When my father left the service, he went to work for Pan Am and spent his first few years flying troops between the U.S. and Vietnam, and witnessed this sort of behavior on a regular basis."

These are certainly some significant data points, if what they told you actually happened. It would be interesting to know whether they spoke about this sort of treatment in the 60's and 70's, rather than waiting until much later -- when the "antiwar protestors spitting on war vets" image has become so much a part of American folklore.

"Also, FWIW, it apparently still happens today: http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/occupy-boston-prot...

FOX has a long and sordid history of outright lies and incredibly biased reporting. This particular story doesn't even mention the alleged victim's name. Nor does it mention whether there were any witnesses.

Re: Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

#65
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do we (or should we) unequivocally respect anyone who risks their lives for a "higher" cause?" Sure. I think one can acknowledge the value of a sacrifice without necessarily agreeing with the cause which motivated that sacrifice. In a more civilized time (in some ways) men used to pay their respects to fallen enemies as well as fallen friends. I remember stories where American servicemen in the navy would salute dea…

Soldiers have always held worthy adversaries in high regard, respecting them even more highly than allies perceived as unworthy (i.e. allies who are craven, weak, incompetent, etc.). However, the key word there is "worthy." I don't see a lot of vets coming back with a lot of respect for the enemies in Iraq and Afghanistan. At most, there is the kind of "respect" you give to a dangerous animal: you know it's not just…

I agree with most of what you've said here, I don't know why folks have voted you down for it.

Re: Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others have stated some of the big reasons why service members get so much respect: they risk their lives for their country, they give up some of their Constitutional rights (although they also gain some extra rights, such as Article 31 rights), and they generally accept lower compensation than they might get on the outside (still true, but not nearly as true as it used to be). I would add another reason: they accept…

Your last paragraph really goes to the heart of the matter. In order to earn my respect, soldiers need to fight for a cause that I consider necessary for humanity as a whole and one that absolutely requires the use of force. Serving any nation's interests alone is not enough even if that country's constitution includes some noble goals. In my view, many veterans are simply misguided, confused, dangerous instruments o…

I'm a veteran. Served time in Kabul in 2008/09 with the US Army.

While I don't expect anyone to thank me for my service (tbh, it makes me uncomfortable), I'm offended that you find it so easy to throw all Soldiers into a single bucket to be judged based on your own ethical standards.

The fact of the matter is that we cannot choose our commander, or our mission, but we trust that our leaders do their best to do what's right...the same way we try to trust politicians to do their duties. While it might be true that there are many bad leaders, Soldiers, and politicians, that doesn't mean we're all as ignorant as you might think.

What did I learn in life threatening situations?

1. If I can survive that, I can survive anything. 2. I am more confident in making immediate decisions. 3. I trust myself, and I trust the people around me. 4. Hard work and discipline goes a long way.

While I have no interest in a lifetime of military service (I separated honorably in 2010), if it weren't for my time in the military I don't feel I would be nearly as willful, determined, and successful as I am today.

Soldier != Servant

Re: Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

#67
post #17
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there don't seem to be a large number of reservists/national guard in the tech community; Why do you/others think this is? I'm not a US citizen, so that counts me out. But even so I wouldn't become a reservest because I feel I have a lot of unique and valuable skills (engineering, thought leadership in platforms, and media technology) that wouldn't be capitalizable by the military - certainly not as a reservist. I wo…

I agree with some of your sentiment, but I think you don't have accurate information on all of the military. The big deal with the reserves/NG (in the Army, at least) is that there is a huge difference among units; the majority of army PSYOPs capability is actually in the reserve component, and is as good as anything in active duty; there are both active duty and reserve units in other specialties which are pretty wi…

I was active duty PSYOP (we don't call it PSYOPs), and I worked with reserve PSYOP units - the differences between the two units are vast.

AD PSYOP units have a major advantage in quality of training, and mission selection. This isn't to downplay the role of reserve PSYOP units, but the roles are dramatically different.

Re: Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

#68
post #16
post #11

I like the point he made about not giving exact instructions on taking a box from point A to B. Looks like it's better to hire smart, capable people and not micromanage them - than it is to hire cheap people and tell them exactly what to do.

Many of the enlisted men in the military aren't all that smart, and most of 'em are pretty darn cheap. If there's a takeaway lesson it's that even not-so-smart, cheap-to-hire people are actually surprisingly capable of doing stuff, if you create a management environment where they have to do it and know they aren't gonna get any mollycoddling from the higher-ups. Here is the task. Go do it. Come back to me when it's…

"Many of the enlisted men in the military aren't all that smart, and most of 'em are pretty darn cheap."

That's one of the most asinine statements I've ever read here.

Re: Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

#69
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last paragraph really goes to the heart of the matter. In order to earn my respect, soldiers need to fight for a cause that I consider necessary for humanity as a whole and one that absolutely requires the use of force. Serving any nation's interests alone is not enough even if that country's constitution includes some noble goals. In my view, many veterans are simply misguided, confused, dangerous instruments o…

I'm a veteran. Served time in Kabul in 2008/09 with the US Army. While I don't expect anyone to thank me for my service (tbh, it makes me uncomfortable), I'm offended that you find it so easy to throw all Soldiers into a single bucket to be judged based on your own ethical standards. The fact of the matter is that we cannot choose our commander, or our mission, but we trust that our leaders do their best to do what's…

When it comes earning _my_ personal respect for (possibly) killing others and (possibly) getting killed, I can only apply my own personal ethical standards. I cannot possibly defer to the government to make that judgement for me.

Re: Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last paragraph really goes to the heart of the matter. In order to earn my respect, soldiers need to fight for a cause that I consider necessary for humanity as a whole and one that absolutely requires the use of force. Serving any nation's interests alone is not enough even if that country's constitution includes some noble goals. In my view, many veterans are simply misguided, confused, dangerous instruments o…

I'm a veteran. Served time in Kabul in 2008/09 with the US Army. While I don't expect anyone to thank me for my service (tbh, it makes me uncomfortable), I'm offended that you find it so easy to throw all Soldiers into a single bucket to be judged based on your own ethical standards. The fact of the matter is that we cannot choose our commander, or our mission, but we trust that our leaders do their best to do what's…

It's interesting how the criticism of supporting those that serve usually come from people that have never enlisted.

Anyone that has served in a war deserves total respect for the sacrifices & suffering they endured every day, regardless of the ethics of the cause. All war is bad, not just those we think are 'worth it', so either give soldiers the respect they deserve every day or be quiet, because many of the liberties we personally enjoy (not just in US, but every country) have come through countless lives, right or wrong.

I realize it can make you uncomfortable, but I'll never stop thanking soldiers in uniform for standing in to defend our country so that I don't have to. Thank you.

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