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LeCun's 2022 paper on autonomous machine intelligence does not cite prior work

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Re: LeCun's 2022 paper on autonomous machine intelligence does not cite prior work

#61
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not have to cite every paper under a specific topic nor do you have to cite the first paper that introduces a paper. Why? Maybe those papers are not well written. Maybe a recent paper covers the idea better, etc. So no, he does not have to be cited just because.

> You do not have to cite every paper under a specific topic Strawman. > nor do you have to cite the first paper that introduces a paper. Did you mean "first paper that introduces a concept."? In any event, also a strawman. > Maybe those papers are not well written. Hypothetical. (Have you read the papers? I've read some and I would say they are well-written.) > Maybe a recent paper covers the idea better, etc. Wonde…

I'm not sure you know what Strawman means. Are you a researcher? Have you published research papers?

>> The options are: cite him, slight him, or prove him wrong.

Again, are you a researcher? These are not the options. Also what even is "slight him" or "prove him wrong"? My comments above are about citation practices not this one researcher in particular.

>> I think he's made it clear that he won't accepts slights without a fight, so one can either show him where he's wrong, cite him as he plainly makes clear one should, or admit that he's being shut out for unscientific reasons.

There is nothing to fight about nor nothing to "prove". There are many reasons to cite an author and being the first to publish a paper many years ago about a topic does not automatically deem citation. That's not how science works. It's how (unfortunately) the academic churn of paper writing works at times.

FYI: it's not "unscientific" to not cite a paper. It's almost impossible to cite all relevant works, so the author of a paper selects the most relevant. Obviously this is biased and can become political (e.g., Schmidhuber), but flamming online about not being cited doesn't mean you must cite an author.

Re: LeCun's 2022 paper on autonomous machine intelligence does not cite prior work

#62
That's because it really isn't an academic paper. He clearly stated that he was publishing it as a manifesto of what he would be researching going forward.

Would it be different if he just published it on a Medium or Substack blog?

I'm not an academic so I don't understand these weird feuds but seems pretty ridiculous to call someone out for lack of citations when they clearly disclosed the nature of that writing as somewhat unofficial and opinion-based. Maybe there's something I don't understand about those academic circles.

Re: LeCun's 2022 paper on autonomous machine intelligence does not cite prior work

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ultimately, Science is about advancing the human condition more than celebrating great individuals. Giving proper credit to prior work is a fundamental component of scientific progress. Just look at the Chinese academic system to see what happens to science when people are given free reign to plagiarise.

Yes, like Watson & Crick and lots of others have shown over the years by lighting the way with proper accreditation. /s Science is a means to an end, the 'giving proper credit' bit has been under fire since the day that someone figured out that citations can bestow fame (hardly every fortune) and given the low stakes it is to be expected that that is the battleground. But the number of PhD students that have been scr…

>Yes, like Watson & Crick and lots of others have shown over the years by lighting the way with proper accreditation. /s

This just in: A wrong thing become right when famous people (allegedly) do it. More at 9.

And that's aside from the fact that you're wrong on the particular case of W&C.

Re: LeCun's 2022 paper on autonomous machine intelligence does not cite prior work

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny ... According to [1], the papers [42,43] showed that plain backprop was capable of solving complex tasks without pretraining on a GPU. From [1]: > Our team then showed that good old backpropagation [A1] on GPUs (with training pattern distortions [42,43] but without any unsupervised pre-training) I can't verify since I have a barely stable connection and little battery, but somebody else should be able to. [1] h…

Sorry what's your contention? or do you have one? Backprop is backprop on CPU or GPU - it just runs (way) faster on GPU. So while you can do some stuff with NN's on CPU, you can do more stuff with NN's on GPU. Further, the sources you reference are from before advances made in software and hardware for massively parallel GPGPU architectures (CUDA), so it's kind of a moot point anyways. Those researchers may have had…

Dan Ciresan’s DanNet ran on GPUs before Hinton’s students

Re: LeCun's 2022 paper on autonomous machine intelligence does not cite prior work

#66

That's because it really isn't an academic paper. He clearly stated that he was publishing it as a manifesto of what he would be researching going forward. Would it be different if he just published it on a Medium or Substack blog? I'm not an academic so I don't understand these weird feuds but seems pretty ridiculous to call someone out for lack of citations when they clearly disclosed the nature of that writing as…

There is a giant leaderboard called “citation count”. You get a real time “score” that can define your career prospects.

So, like any system with a “score”, people become warped, they focus on the score above all else. So this person thinks they aren’t getting their magical citation “points” and are mad.

Nobody owns ideas and very few ideas are original, or much more important, timely.

If anybody is getting screwed it’s the science fiction authors!

Re: LeCun's 2022 paper on autonomous machine intelligence does not cite prior work

#67
Uh oh.

Jürgen Schmidhuber's Home Page - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30250395 - Feb 2022 (8 comments)

Turing Oversold? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28522761 - Sept 2021 (303 comments)

Schmidhuber: The most cited neural networks all build on work done in my labs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28465943 - Sept 2021 (1 comment)

1931: Kurt Gödel shows limits of math, logic, computing, AI - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27536974 - June 2021 (296 comments)

Who Invented Backpropagation? (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27127611 - May 2021 (1 comment)

Critique of 2018 Turing Award for Drs. Bengio and Hinton and LeCun - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26804496 - April 2021 (20 comments)

Verifying Schmidhuber's Critique of Turing Award for Bengio and Hinton and LeCun - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23649542 - June 2020 (7 comments)

Critique of 2018 Turing Award for Drs. Bengio and Hinton and LeCun - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23642335 - June 2020 (1 comment)

Schmidhuber: Critique of Honda Prize for Dr. Hinton - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22932838 - April 2020 (1 comment)

Deep Learning: Our Miraculous Year 1990-1991 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21166852 - Oct 2019 (34 comments - tlb has a nice take in the top comment there)

Lecun.ml Redirects to Schmidhuber's Website - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19884691 - May 2019 (1 comment)

Yann LeCun, Geoffrey Hinton and Yoshua Bengio win Turing Award - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19499515 - March 2019 (146 comments)

Jürgen Schmidhuber on Consciousness (AMA on Reddit, 2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19241278 - Feb 2019 (3 comments)

Jürgen Schmidhuber says he’ll make machines smarter than us - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17100132 - May 2018 (26 comments)

This Man Is the Godfather the AI Community Wants to Forget - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17089607 - May 2018 (1 comment)

This Man Is the Godfather the AI Community Wants to Forget - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17073202 - May 2018 (1 comment)

Deep Learning Conspiracy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16962938 - April 2018 (1 comment)

A Computer Scientist’s View of Life, the Universe, and Everything (1999) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14094373 - April 2017 (73 comments)

AI Pioneer Wants to Build the Renaissance Machine of the Future - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13412050 - Jan 2017 (28 comments)

Jürgen Schmidhuber: The Problems of AI Consciousness Is Already Solved - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13316530 - Jan 2017 (1 comment)

When A.I. Matures, It May Call Jürgen Schmidhuber ‘Dad’ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13066646 - Nov 2016 (50 comments)

When A.I. Matures, It May Call Jürgen Schmidhuber ‘Dad’ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13056794 - Nov 2016 (2 comments)

Ye LeCun replies back to Juergen Schmidhuber blog post #DeepLearningDrama - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9824660 - July 2015 (3 comments)

Critique of Paper by “Deep Learning Conspiracy” - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9807326 - June 2015 (33 comments)

Deep Learning Talk by Jürgen Schmidhuber, Director of the Swiss AI Lab IDSIA - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7694270 - May 2014 (1 comment)

Re: LeCun's 2022 paper on autonomous machine intelligence does not cite prior work

#68

background from the great Genius Makers history of ML: The press needed heroes for its AI narrative. It chose Hinton, LeCun, Bengio, and sometimes Ng, thanks largely to the promotional efforts of Google and Facebook. The narrative did not extend to Jürgen Schmidhuber, the German researcher based on Lake Lugano who carried the torch for neural networks in Europe during the 1990s and 2000s. Some took issue with Schmidh…

Back in the early 2000's (when I first started getting into this stuff), Schmidhuber's ideas were absolutely off-the-charts revolutionary compared to anything any other lab was doing. The level of creativity coming out of IDSIA was insane. I truly believe he has not been given even slightly the level of recognition he deserves. Many of the original founders of DeepMind are his direct students. E.g. Alex Graves, who is basically the pioneer of "attention" in neural networks (and we all know what architecture that led to...)

Re: LeCun's 2022 paper on autonomous machine intelligence does not cite prior work

#69

Quoted post unavailable.

Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? You've done it a fair bit and we ban that sort of account. I don't want to ban you, because you've also posted some good things, but we need you to stick to the rules when posting here.

We want curious, thoughtful conversation. If you don't have anything of that sort to say, your options are to (1) find a different topic you do have something curious and thoughtful to say about, or (2) not to post anything.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: LeCun's 2022 paper on autonomous machine intelligence does not cite prior work

#70

It's him again. That must be enough to give context on who I am talking about. I do not know what to tell about him. Sure he has explored a lot of topic and never got the limelight like others. But I think it's time for him to stop gaslighting about other researchers just because they didn't cite his papers. Sure, they could have never read it. He can make his work shout by publishing better papers and better design.…

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