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Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development

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Re: Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development

#61

Post by pkphilip »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #44
nmridul wrote: post #42

If some Indian tells you that they are progressive and caste is not followed these days, ask them which caste their spouse belongs to. And that will answer how progressive they are.

Caste is another word for tribe. All across the world, the vast majority of people marry in their own tribe, for a variety of reasons. I married within my own tribe because I like my tribe’s food and customs, and I wanted a spouse who likes the same. It all comes down to socioeconomic class at the end anyway, whether it be called “caste”, or “doctor/lawyer/engineer”, or MIT/cal tech/Stanford grad, etc. If you have a…

This is an oversimplification of the caste issue in India. Caste oppression is socially enforced in India with violence.

A person can get killed for marrying into the wrong caste and it happens often enough in India. https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/pune/dalit-youth-be...

A low caste person can get killed if they "trespass" even by having mustache which is only allowed for the upper caste in parts of India or if they are seen eating before the so-called upper castes. Or for just making eye contact!

https://www.opindia.com/2022/03/rajasthan-dalit-man-jitendra...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48265387

Or you can get killed for something as simple as riding a horse! https://thewire.in/caste/family-alleges-dalit-boy-was-killed...

Or being seated in front of the upper caste.. https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/dalit-youth-thrash...

In almost all of these cases the cops and the law enforcement will put pressure on the victim's family to withdraw cases.

Any Indian who argues that caste oppression doesn't happen in India now is not misinformed - they are just lying.

Re: Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development

#62

Post by pkphilip »

mohanmcgeek wrote: post #18
unmole wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certainly, I hope anyone commenting on this will take note of the publishing date being more than 100 years ago. That's irrelevant when discussing the mechanism, genesis and development of a system that goes back millienia. > they'll say something like, "he's from the janitor class, but thats okay, because he's a doctor" What are you basing this on? Exogamy between castes remains very low, even between different hi…

> Exogamy between castes remains very low, even between different high castes. What are you basing this on?

The Caste survey conducted in 2018 found that only around 5.8% of all marriages in India are intercaste:

https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/in...

Re: Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development

#63

Post by zozbot234 »

srean wrote: post #60
himyogi wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two big bloopers 1) Mongols never invaded India. Even though they reached river Sindh while hunting a Muslim ruler. They had deference towards India - the land Buddhism arose from. Some historians say lack of grassland etc but they never came here. Even your Wiki link says the same except for the disingenuous headline. Kashmir was invaded my Muslims from Mongol captured regions not Mingols themselves. Mongols were no…

> Mongols never invaded India. Even though they reached river Sindh I agree with you and havent claimed otherwise (quoting myself: Mongols did not really get inside India although there were a few battles where some Mongol generals tested the borders.). Was responding to parent's claim that caste system was an artifact Mongol invasion. Not sure what relevance of them not being Muslims or the scarcity/search for grass…

The varna is about individual callings or occupations, not caste as understood today in India. It also has its correlates elsewhere, e.g. in the Confucian "four occupations of the people" and the tripartite division in the West. Would you say that Europe had a caste system historically because of the definition of First, Second and Third Estates?

Re: Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development

#64

Post by pkphilip »

amriksohata wrote: post #35

Caste comes from the Portuguese word "Castus". There is no literal translation found for this word in ancient Hindu Sanskrit texts. The quoted article comes written from a time under British Raj where peoples backgrounds were used to further divide society so that they would not rise up against the British. Caste in the same sense of occupational background exists in all cultures but was never used in such a divisive…

Caste endogamy in India is well established and it shows that inter-marriage etc between castes basically stopped around 1800+ years ago.. which is clearly well before the British, Portuguese or whoever else came to India.

And also saying that the Portuguese/British invented the caste system because "caste" is a Portuguese system makes no sense because:

a) Indians don't speak Portuguese and the words Jati and Varna have both existed in Indian languages for millenia

b) To claim that something didn't exist because a word from a foreign language is most commonly used to discuss it is like saying that gravity didn't exist before Isaac Newton as he is the one to discover it and give it meaning.

Re: Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development

#65

Post by pkphilip »

srean wrote: post #60
himyogi wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two big bloopers 1) Mongols never invaded India. Even though they reached river Sindh while hunting a Muslim ruler. They had deference towards India - the land Buddhism arose from. Some historians say lack of grassland etc but they never came here. Even your Wiki link says the same except for the disingenuous headline. Kashmir was invaded my Muslims from Mongol captured regions not Mingols themselves. Mongols were no…

> Mongols never invaded India. Even though they reached river Sindh I agree with you and havent claimed otherwise (quoting myself: Mongols did not really get inside India although there were a few battles where some Mongol generals tested the borders.). Was responding to parent's claim that caste system was an artifact Mongol invasion. Not sure what relevance of them not being Muslims or the scarcity/search for grass…

Even the Govardhan Mutt Shankararcharya - one of the custodians of Advaita, argues clearly that the varna and jati are integral to Hinduism and he supports the caste system. You can find his videos on Youtube.

Re: Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development

#66

Post by srean »

himyogi wrote: post #58
the_omegist wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the (quick) search I did following your un-sourced claim : the Hindu castes system existed centuries before the arrival of the British in India. And are you claiming one could have been born a Dalit and become a Brahmin (or whatever the "non-british" castes names you want to give them) during his lifetime? I highly doubt it ever was as casual as you make it sound... It seems this claim is somewhat popular in som…

Reference Bhagvad Gita 4-13 . It talks about 4 varnas based on Guna & karmas. The famous sage Valmiki was a Shudra who became a Brahmin by composing the epic Ramayana.

> The famous sage Valmiki was a Shudra who became a Brahmin by composing the epic Ramayana.

Could you cite a reference ? The traditional stories that I have heard from my grandparents tells a different story. That he was born Agni Sharma (Brahmin) and acquired the name Valmiki for reciting the words "death" (mara) which repeated seemed he was chanting "Rama".

Re: Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development

#67

Post by srean »

zozbot234 wrote: post #63
srean wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mongols never invaded India. Even though they reached river Sindh I agree with you and havent claimed otherwise (quoting myself: Mongols did not really get inside India although there were a few battles where some Mongol generals tested the borders.). Was responding to parent's claim that caste system was an artifact Mongol invasion. Not sure what relevance of them not being Muslims or the scarcity/search for grass…

The varna is about individual callings or occupations, not caste as understood today in India. It also has its correlates elsewhere, e.g. in the Confucian "four occupations of the people" and the tripartite division in the West. Would you say that Europe had a caste system historically because of the definition of First, Second and Third Estates?

> The varna is about individual callings or occupation, not caste as understood today in India.

That's certainly what the caste denialist narrative desparately wants to paint. It certainly is not the consensus.

Re: Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development

#68

Post by [deleted] »

pkphilip wrote: post #61
lotsofpulp wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caste is another word for tribe. All across the world, the vast majority of people marry in their own tribe, for a variety of reasons. I married within my own tribe because I like my tribe’s food and customs, and I wanted a spouse who likes the same. It all comes down to socioeconomic class at the end anyway, whether it be called “caste”, or “doctor/lawyer/engineer”, or MIT/cal tech/Stanford grad, etc. If you have a…

This is an oversimplification of the caste issue in India. Caste oppression is socially enforced in India with violence. A person can get killed for marrying into the wrong caste and it happens often enough in India. https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/pune/dalit-youth-be... A low caste person can get killed if they "trespass" even by having mustache which is only allowed for the upper caste in parts of India or…

[deleted]

Re: Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development

#69

Post by victorcharlie »

rayiner wrote: post #37
victorcharlie wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if this comes as extremely ignorant but how is the caste of a foreigner determined? Let's say I marry an Indian, I must adopt her caste? I have to get... Evaluated? and after that I get a caste?

You’ll be a foreigner forever. Your kids will be foreigners too, regardless of how long they live there.

So being a no caste foreigner is better or worse than a low caste? :S I guess it depends on a lot of factors but...

Re: Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development

#70

Post by riddleronroof »

pkphilip wrote: post #61
lotsofpulp wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caste is another word for tribe. All across the world, the vast majority of people marry in their own tribe, for a variety of reasons. I married within my own tribe because I like my tribe’s food and customs, and I wanted a spouse who likes the same. It all comes down to socioeconomic class at the end anyway, whether it be called “caste”, or “doctor/lawyer/engineer”, or MIT/cal tech/Stanford grad, etc. If you have a…

This is an oversimplification of the caste issue in India. Caste oppression is socially enforced in India with violence. A person can get killed for marrying into the wrong caste and it happens often enough in India. https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/pune/dalit-youth-be... A low caste person can get killed if they "trespass" even by having mustache which is only allowed for the upper caste in parts of India or…

Sorry. Random things happens in the US too. It means racism exists. Not enforced. Same for simplifying stereotypes of India from 50 years ago.
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