Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

telegraph.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 833 posts

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#61

Post by awb »

Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

> The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions

True, but it’s possible to ask questions that sway public opinion. Look at all the “studies” tobacco companies paid for. Or the racist scientific theories that attempted to justify slavery.

If you’re asking questions about a lab leak out of genuine scientific interest, that’s perfectly legitimate.

But if you’re asking out of a desire to win political points, stir up tensions, etc., that’s destructive.

There are plenty of actors on both sides, using the same tool of scientific inquiry for good and for ill.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#63

Post by _Nat_ »

DarknessFalls wrote: post #33

Can someone explain why the furin cleavage site is unusual from a natural evolutionary view?

RootClaim discusses that claim and its perceived relevance [here](https://www.rootclaim.com/analysis/What-is-the-source-of-COV... ).

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#64

Post by [deleted] »

perryizgr8 wrote: post #50
awb wrote: post #35

Some additional perspectives: Snopes is highly skeptical: https://www.snopes.com/news/2021/07/16/lab-leak-evidence/ An r/science essay from a PhD in virology is highly skeptical: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid19_did... While Root Claim estimates an 83% chance of a lab leak: https://www.rootclaim.com/analysis/What-is-the-source-of-COV...

Snopes and the science page on reddit are not confidence-inspiring sources, to be honest. We need an authoritative investigation (led by WHO/CDC) into the origins of the virus to be able to make knowledgable statements. Until that happens, there is only hearsay and speculation.

[deleted]

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#65

Post by awb »

dane-pgp wrote: post #9
Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

> warned it could damage “international harmony”. I've never understood the argument that people would want to suppress the (accidental) lab-leak hypothesis out of a desire to protect the image of China. If the lab-leak hypothesis is incorrect, that doesn't change the fact that the virus originated in that country, it just means that the virus emerged from a wet market. I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country…

Animal to human transmission is understandable though and forgivable as it happens all the time.

Human error would generate blame though and cost China tons of political capital with countries eager to calculate just how much damage this mistake cost them.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#66

Post by labster »

grover35 wrote: post #48
theplumber wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country's image is more harmed by accusations of having backwards cultural and food habits You forget the politics. CCP can never be wrong or do wrong. That would risk their rule. I'm pretty sure they would rather see the country burning than admitting guilt and incompetence. You can see that kind of selfish behaviour at most of the leaders(I would dare to say even in recent…

Yes, any evidence of a lab leak theory could decimate Chinese society and further oppression.

No, but it could hurt the feelings of the Chinese people.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#67

Post by xqcgrek2 »

Jimmc414 wrote: post #34
xqcgrek2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how science works in the post-WW2 era. Most prominent scientists (in any field) seldom do science when they attain their stature -- they manage people (students and postdocs), and many become politicians for their institution or lab to attain more funding.

I'm curious, what effect do you see WW2 having on science itself? That is not intended to be argumentative, I'd like to hear your opinion.

Government funding of science and a proposal/grant system. Senior people spend a lot of time writing proposals, and need underlings to do the leg work. They also have to be politically savvy so their peers don't reject their proposals.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#68

Post by birdyrooster »

dane-pgp wrote: post #9
Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

> warned it could damage “international harmony”. I've never understood the argument that people would want to suppress the (accidental) lab-leak hypothesis out of a desire to protect the image of China. If the lab-leak hypothesis is incorrect, that doesn't change the fact that the virus originated in that country, it just means that the virus emerged from a wet market. I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country…

I would guess it benefits the US too since they had been providing business to the Wuhan lab and failed to vet them effectively. Here is a fun conspiracy theory: what if the US put high risk projects in China hoping that they could obfuscate blame from themselves in case it caused a public health crisis?

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#69

Post by dane-pgp »

theplumber wrote: post #25
dane-pgp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> warned it could damage “international harmony”. I've never understood the argument that people would want to suppress the (accidental) lab-leak hypothesis out of a desire to protect the image of China. If the lab-leak hypothesis is incorrect, that doesn't change the fact that the virus originated in that country, it just means that the virus emerged from a wet market. I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country…

>> I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country's image is more harmed by accusations of having backwards cultural and food habits You forget the politics. CCP can never be wrong or do wrong. That would risk their rule. I'm pretty sure they would rather see the country burning than admitting guilt and incompetence. You can see that kind of selfish behaviour at most of the leaders(I would dare to say even in recent…

> CCP can never be wrong or do wrong. That would risk their rule.

But by failing to regulate wet markets properly, aren't they equally at fault?

Perhaps the supposed logic is that a scientist at a lab doing this sort of research probably counts as a government employee, whereas someone storing animals unhygienically would more likely be self-employed, so that makes the government less directly responsible.

I'm not sure if that distinction really matters to people who want to blame China's government, though.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#70

Post by whatshisface »

awb wrote: post #61
Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

> The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions True, but it’s possible to ask questions that sway public opinion. Look at all the “studies” tobacco companies paid for. Or the racist scientific theories that attempted to justify slavery. If you’re asking questions about a lab leak out of genuine scientific interest, that’s perfectly legitimate. But if you’re as…

Your examples don't match the point you were making. The bent studies from tobacco companies were falsifying answers, not just asking questions, and the racist theories were operating on a hazy pseudoscientific level that can't even be called "falsification," but were also, by another means, giving false answers.

There may have been a time in history when asking questions alone has been used maliciously, but it's neither of those.

Post reply on HN