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We need to reclaim our attention

theguardian.com

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Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#61

Post by nabla9 »

slibhb wrote: post #42

> Some scientists say these worries about attention are a moral panic, comparable to the anxieties in the past about comic books or rap music, and that the evidence is shaky. I agree with them. It's hard to pay attention to something for long unless it's entertaining. Reading a book, reading a paper, etc -- these activities take discipline that most people don't develop or don't often apply. This isn't new. The mista…

> but it's always the same story.

This is the reverse slippery slope fallacy.

There is no threshold, no effect size where this tuns net negative, etc. We took these 10 steps, were worried and nothing happened, we can do more steps.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#62

Post by speedcoder »

jacquesm wrote: post #52
batch12 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People talk about addiction to social media or other attention-farming software, but not many people really take it seriously. People think they are unicorns and while some can get addicted or manipulated-- they think "not me. I am too savvy." As long this issue just keeps getting shrugged off as a new version of tv-is-bad hysteria 'media' companies will keep making their dollars and enslaving the minds of the t…

One form this takes is that people with some regularity claim that 'all this advertising doesn't work on them' while having an iPhone, ridiculously over-priced in ear headphones, designer clothes with large logos on them and shoes with very visible branding. Advertising works, on everybody. The only way to get to a level playing field is to filter it out of your life as much as possible. The only thing I haven't foun…

https://www.tvbgone.com meant as a prank. And I love using it almost anywhere.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#63

Post by 37 »

telxosser wrote: post #44
jmfldn wrote: post #2

This for me is key, these sorts of problems cannot just be solved on an individual level. They are systemic. "Individual abstinence is “not the solution, for the same reason that wearing a gas mask for two days a week outside isn’t the answer to pollution. It might, for a short period of time, keep certain effects at bay, but it’s not sustainable, and it doesn’t address the systemic issues.” He said that our attentio…

I just don't agree really. That analogy is pretty absurd. It is hugely powerful to not get caught up in all this nonsense at the individual level. I know so much more than what I knew in early January 2021 because I spend my time reading books, doing tutorials or taking MOOCS instead of wasting my time watching TikTok. I literally don't even know what the user interface to TikTok looks like and never will. If anythin…

It's both. Yes it is good that you spent early 2021 not mindlessly scrolling TikTok, and yes it is true that as individuals we do have some agency in the matter.

But, it is also true that in this 'attention economy' the large companies are hiring psychologists to try to break your agency, to try to take it away from you. And they are doing a pretty damn good job, and aren't going to stop any time soon. "Stolen" in the title of the OP is not really an exaggeration.

>It is hugely powerful to not get caught up in all this nonsense at the individual level.

I mostly agree with this, but in the same token think we should be aware of "this nonsense".

>As if there is absolutely no choice other than to be helplessly addicted to your phone.

Don't think anyone is saying that. Think what we are saying is more along the lines of something like 'the problem is systemic, essentially baked into the business model of advertising/marketing, and it should be addressed'

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#64

Post by jacquesm »

lacerus wrote: post #54
radicalbyte wrote: post #18

My attention has collapsed in recent times, but it's not because of mobiles. It's because I have three young kids. You literally have to keep your eye on them at all times so you stop them killing themselves. Also, going from 8 hrs of sleep a night + 1 hr of intensive sport a day to 4-5 hrs of sleep a night and 1 hr of sport a year is an absolute mind killer. When I was younger I could never imagine going into manage…

This 100x! I am in the same boat, ours are 4 and 2. I recently installed rings and a super sturdy pull up bar next to the kids room and hope to do some basic calisthenics there with the kids before putting them to bed. Wish me luck. So far they really like it and I get at least a mini-workout out of it. Nothing like an hour at a real gym, but better than nothing.

One family member I have uses his kids as weights for exercising, they get a huge kick out of it and he gets his workout.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#65

Post by jacquesm »

speedcoder wrote: post #62
jacquesm wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One form this takes is that people with some regularity claim that 'all this advertising doesn't work on them' while having an iPhone, ridiculously over-priced in ear headphones, designer clothes with large logos on them and shoes with very visible branding. Advertising works, on everybody. The only way to get to a level playing field is to filter it out of your life as much as possible. The only thing I haven't foun…

https://www.tvbgone.com meant as a prank. And I love using it almost anywhere.

That looks like an excellent way to get lynched.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#66

Post by sascha_sl »

slibhb wrote: post #42

> Some scientists say these worries about attention are a moral panic, comparable to the anxieties in the past about comic books or rap music, and that the evidence is shaky. I agree with them. It's hard to pay attention to something for long unless it's entertaining. Reading a book, reading a paper, etc -- these activities take discipline that most people don't develop or don't often apply. This isn't new. The mista…

It's less about entertaining, and more about interesting, which is how I know you completely misunderstood ADHD. Discipline can only compensate shitty neurotransmitter levels for so long, eventually it becomes painful to even start trying to focus and it'll even cut into your productivity with things where you'd usually get hyperfocus without issues.

I really hate how contentious and polarizing ADHD is. Reminds me of being trans. There are people who benefit greatly from being medicated, much more than the risk they take. That should really be the end of it.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#67

Post by hackingthelema »

I often wonder what the world would be like if the Buddhist sciences of the mind (e.g. mindfulness) were taught at all levels of society, as a priority, and TFA mentions it near the end, to say it's not enough:

> Meditation is a useful tool – but we actually need to stop the people who are pouring itching powder on us. We need to band together to take on the forces stealing our attention and take it back.

I'd argue the 'attention stealing' -- the 'itching powder', as the article called it -- is all in your head. It does exist, concretely, of course, in the form of social media, video games, etc. but their power over you -- the itchiness -- is something I find is seen for what it is through mindfulness. If we teach people proper control over their own minds, we put the power in their hands to evaluate new technologies and services mindfully.

I would sooner fight for teaching proper mental hygiene to people than trying to regulate every possible idea under the sun (as it suggests at the end). You DO own your own mind, as TFA says at the very end -- so take control of it!

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#68

Post by smokey_circles »

I had to read the whole thing to make sure I didn't miss anything.

You don't need to read this article, it's adding nothing new to the conversation except for a whole bunch of "i'm so smart, use my wisdom" type stories dotted neatly around the "i don't like that i'm getting old" lamentation going on.

> Some scientists say these worries about attention are a moral panic, comparable to the anxieties in the past about comic books or rap music, and that the evidence is shaky

Who gives us a toss what some scientists say? What does the friggen data say?

Is this really what passes for higher tier journalism these days? Pathetic

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#69

Post by sascha_sl »

abledon wrote: post #56
slibhb wrote: post #42

> Some scientists say these worries about attention are a moral panic, comparable to the anxieties in the past about comic books or rap music, and that the evidence is shaky. I agree with them. It's hard to pay attention to something for long unless it's entertaining. Reading a book, reading a paper, etc -- these activities take discipline that most people don't develop or don't often apply. This isn't new. The mista…

whenever the power goes off in my house for long periods, its as if some super power hits and i can read books with a new found attention span

That wouldn't work with ADHD. You'd probably sit down and think about all the things you could do with that time without actually doing them while continuously scolding yourself for not doing them, and then get up 5 hours later, 3 of which you felt hungry and 2 of which you felt like going to the toilet.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#70

Post by hnthrowaway0315 »

I think it's more about existential crisis than electronics. People don't have focus because they don't have focus in their life. They drift along the trend and only have occasional focus when it is forced upon them (e.g. deadline tomorrow morning). They don't really need focus, IMHO, because most of the things they work on don't require that. Social media and other things just feed them the phantasy that they are "focused" and "have something meaningful to do". I kinda agree a previous commenter that there will always be entertainment (and those entertainment are trained to grab your attention) around and removing some from us won't fix.

I also found that lack of energy plays a role. Whenever dealing with a difficult topic (e.g. studying something difficult), my energy level drops fast and in maybe 20-30 minutes it's totally gone and I cannot force my eye balls to fall on the reading material any more.

As mentioned in another comment, I believe I also fell victim of "juggling", whenever I'm learning online (i.e. without a book), I tend to multitask if the material is not very challenging (i.e. does not need focus). That brings me the conclusion that modern web learning platforms such as edX and modern course designers tend to simplify/gamify the material by cutting the material into very small chunks (most of the videos are sub-5 minutes). I would like to fall back to the traditional learning experience in which we read physical books, working on real electronic components and have to make appointments to ask questions (or grind in library for hours, even days for one single issue).

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