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Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

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Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#61

Post by YinglingLight »

lucaspm98 wrote: post #40
vanderZwan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is true for the art world. Female dominated in every art school I know, male dominated at the well-paying end of the success spectrum. And I can safely say that I have not ever noticed any discrimination against male artists while studying it. Quite the contrary.

One factor that may be contributing to this, especially in the art world, is survivorship bias driven by higher male risk tolerances. Men have much more boom or bust outcomes in their lives and careers due to lower risk aversion. What this could look like in the art world is a lower tendency than women towards a stable yet income-capped career like art teacher, and a higher tendency towards a risky yet unlimited pote…

The importance of the Agreeableness trait need be stressed in every conversation about gender and career. Men are an entire standard deviation lower in Agreeableness than women.

Being low in Agreeableness is the most common trait among CEOs and the prison population.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#62

Post by tristor »

lucaspm98 wrote: post #40
vanderZwan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is true for the art world. Female dominated in every art school I know, male dominated at the well-paying end of the success spectrum. And I can safely say that I have not ever noticed any discrimination against male artists while studying it. Quite the contrary.

One factor that may be contributing to this, especially in the art world, is survivorship bias driven by higher male risk tolerances. Men have much more boom or bust outcomes in their lives and careers due to lower risk aversion. What this could look like in the art world is a lower tendency than women towards a stable yet income-capped career like art teacher, and a higher tendency towards a risky yet unlimited pote…

This is likely a factor, the other factor that tends to account for these differences in fields where individual performance directly determines outcomes is that men have a wider bell curve than women do, although there is significant overlap for individual performance on pretty much every facet, men have more outliers at both the best end and worst end of the curve. This is true against nearly every facet of human performance, the variance is just higher. Higher variance combined with survivorship bias means that the top-most performers in fields that are driven almost entirely by individual performance (athletics, independent artists, authors) are dominated by men at the top, even though the vast majority of men, even those with interest in that field, would fail or be average.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#63

Post by cronix »

donohoe wrote: post #47
teddyh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then please argue with those people when and where you encounter them.

I will. I predict we will see it in the comments here - likely throwaway amounts. That is why I was calling for a sense of perspective in advance.

5,000 years from now you can still say "let's not forget, once upon a time..."

It just doesn't really add anything to the current topic.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#64

Post by eckesicle »

Upon reading the headline I immediately wondered if childcare and cleaning were in the set of the female dominated careers.

My hypothesis is that men are considered much much riskier hires for certain roles.

The reason I thought of these two roles in particular is because socially I've often heard expressed worries that men in daycare are more likely to be sex offenders, and for cleaning I've often come across the sentiment that men are more likely to steal (in Sweden). If those beliefs are pervasive the discrimination should be reflected in the data too, as employers steer away from hiring men.

Indeed the discrimination effect is significantly weaker if you look at table 1 in the 'Data' section of study while discounting these two roles.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#65

Post by thatcat »

323 wrote: post #56
gruez wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how does that explain females having better response rates than men?

The patriarchy wants men to have higher paying jobs, thus it ignores their applications for lower paying ones.

How do you get the higher paying job if you cant get an entry level job and experience?

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#66

Post by throwaway0a5e »

dagw wrote: post #34
daenz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do get your point, but leadership is sometimes unique in that it requires an individual to take the role.

You can take a leadership role, but you cannot take a leadership position. That has to be given to you.

Usually people get promotions like that after the prior leader has quit and they have spent some time filling in in the interim. Or they apply for jobs that have leadership responsibilities as the next step of their career ladder until they get one. In both cases seeking the role comes before actually being granted it.

It's very rare for organizations to grant leadership roles to anyone not already seeking it (usually by performing that role or applying for that job) in some capacity.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#67

Post by gampleman »

xondono wrote: post #53
ThrowItAway22 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked with a senior female colleague (featuring on lists of Most Influential Women in XYZ at the national level) who would regularly say things like "I only want to hire women to work for me" in meetings. Apparently that's something you can say with impunity.

> Apparently that's something you can say with impunity. I don’t know, but I do know that saying: "I only want to hire men to work for me" will get you fired before the end of the week..

Me looking at CVs.

Female colleague: "Let's hire her, she's a woman."

Me: "That's illegal."

Female colleague: "oh well... make sure you interview her..."

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#68

Post by rmak »

donohoe wrote: post #36
wonderwonder wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would acknowledging that men are discriminated against minimize the concern for discrimination against women? Its ok to focus on more than 1 thing. Discrimination is wrong, never really understood the purpose of 'whataboutism'.

I am not saying that. But there are many (typically men's rights orgs) who seize on stories like this to say that 'enough is enough and truly it is us men who are being marginalized [in ways beyond what the article says]' and thats not at all true.

Well, if I ever want to be marginalized I want it to be like how women are marginalized, specially in the West. Only marginalized group to have better education and healthcare funding, lives longer than their oppressors, have more legal rights than their oppressors plus vast majority of tax benefits directed towards them as well.

Yeah, historically men were forced to work 12 hours in coal mines, oil rigs, garbage dumps, forests, in deep seas with next to nothing safety equipment and with no regulations while women were forced to stay in their homes with their children. Where can I sign up for this kind of discrimination?

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#69

Post by throwaway0a5e »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #48
wonderwonder wrote: post #10

I think its pretty common in the US. Look at law firms there are very few male paralegals and nursing as well. Same concept applies to secretarial / admin / HR style roles. I have seen a hiring manager in real life skip over male applicants for an admin role.

Any reddit thread where the subject of "men in nursing" arises quickly fills with tales of straightforward discrimination and gross sexual harassment.

Yeah but that's Reddit. You never know if you're getting 99% reality and 1% fantasy or 99% fantasy and 1% reality. The platform is intentionally built to fake the appearance of strong consensus where there is none so every appearance of consensus is suspect. I'm inclined to agree with the premise but "as evidenced by Reddit" is worth exactly zero in my mind.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#70

Post by sundvor »

endymi0n wrote: post #58
lucaspm98 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One factor that may be contributing to this, especially in the art world, is survivorship bias driven by higher male risk tolerances. Men have much more boom or bust outcomes in their lives and careers due to lower risk aversion. What this could look like in the art world is a lower tendency than women towards a stable yet income-capped career like art teacher, and a higher tendency towards a risky yet unlimited pote…

Note the hypothesis about risk being a predominantly male trait is also consistent at the other end with men making up 90%+ of prison population in pretty much any form of government or society. I haven't heard many feminists argue for a female quota in prisons yet.

Or workplace deaths, 10:1, or suicides 3.5:1 or higher.
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