Live data from Hacker News

Clean environment could become U.N. human right

reuters.com

61–70 of 152 posts

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#61
post #5

If you declare too many things to a "human right" it removes wiggle room for good policy making. Also, the US already has stronger rules against vehicle pollution than the EU (in terms of pollution that directly damage health like NOx and PM). If it's going to become a "human right" then countries who propose it should be leading it in the first place.

The UN doesn't really have any teeth. It has always been a cat's paw for its most powerful and wealthy members. It's sort of a zombie institution that failed at the onset of the Korean War, but that has been kept alive in a state of undeath since then for various reasons.

One thing it does is to buttress the fictive sovereignty of all these hundreds of "nations" which are not actually sovereign or independent, but enjoy promoting the notion that they are out of the belief that it makes the citizens more spirited. If the people believe that the 'new boss' is the people, rather than the 'same boss as the old boss,' they're less likely to revolt or otherwise be demoralized. That's the theory, but it's one of those things where the people who are supposed to 'get the joke' no longer get the joke, so it leads to a lot of confusion and muddled thinking on the topic.

The moment that any "nation" asserts sovereignty independent of the 'international community,' the fiction is exposed. There are only a small number of countries actually capable of asserting sovereignty and the US is one of them, China's another.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#62
post #35

> "At national level, this right has been shown to empower people, particularly those most vulnerable to environmental damage or climate change, to drive change and hold governments to account" Right, so one of the consequences would be that the US gives a bunch of activists permission to use the legal system to harass anything that they like — not just new projects, but everything that exists in the world. Perhaps w…

This is it exactly. Western country have to actually follow the international laws that are put into place. Countries like China just have to claim they follow the laws.

But I see all the time US bullying other countries with sanctions, US could for example stop doing business with China until UN guys are happy with human rights , but at the same time US should allow UN guys to verify human rights condition in US too(including the secret torture places and also the suspicious suicide cases of incommode people).

I am disgusted by human rights demands only from China but not from "US partners" that are doing maybe even worse (like not offering equal rights for women or killing gay people with stones). I would have more respect if you equally condemn everyone or just shut up and fix your local issues .

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#64
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't compensate for the lack of human and civil rights by polluting less or buying carbon credits. To an extent, you can – obviously not by buying carbon credits, though. Doing things that actually improve (or, reduce less slowly) the living conditions of humans is comparable to poor living conditions of humans.

I think I have to disagree with that. Human and civil rights are not just about living conditions, it's more about such hard to define thing as respect for human dignity which can be preserved in various conditions.

[deleted]

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#66
post #35

> "At national level, this right has been shown to empower people, particularly those most vulnerable to environmental damage or climate change, to drive change and hold governments to account" Right, so one of the consequences would be that the US gives a bunch of activists permission to use the legal system to harass anything that they like — not just new projects, but everything that exists in the world. Perhaps w…

This is it exactly. Western country have to actually follow the international laws that are put into place. Countries like China just have to claim they follow the laws.

Is that a joke? Most "western" countries have wiped their asses with international laws. Be it illegal wars, illegal kidnappings and torture (US), illegal deportations and violations of international agreements signed months prior(UK), bombing a neutral ship in a foreign country ( France), etc. etc. The examples are too numerous to list, but here's some academic material just for the US:

https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a...

https://www.jstor.org/stable/29766228

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're saying no to a Chinese puppet org (the UN) using clean environment as an attack on them while China does nothing to address their environmental impact.

China has more renewable energy than any one in the world

Does that mean China and Russia approve of making a clean environment a human right?

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#68

> "At national level, this right has been shown to empower people, particularly those most vulnerable to environmental damage or climate change, to drive change and hold governments to account" Right, so one of the consequences would be that the US gives a bunch of activists permission to use the legal system to harass anything that they like — not just new projects, but everything that exists in the world. Perhaps w…

> Meanwhile nations like China spewing godawful particulates all over Shanghai will surely WILL FOLLOW THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW AND ALLOW THE LITTLE GUY TO SPEAK UP AGAINST THE ABUSES OF THEIR STATE RUN INDUSTRY. Mmmhmm.

The article makes no mention of China, I'm wondering where this idea is coming from? Can you have a good faith discussion about anything political without going so far out of your way to smear the DPRC? Is it possible to accept responsibility without pointing fingers at others?

The DPRC has only been an industrial power for the past 30-40 years, 70+ years after the western industrial boom - Western nations had already put astronauts/cosmonauts in space. If you feel your country isn't accountable for anything, then argue your point because this finger pointing isn't helping anyone nor is it interesting.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#69

A "clean" environment is so subjective and temporal, I don't understand how it can be a "human" right... Why does UN keep digging into this hole of irrelevancy and bs?

Also, if it is a right, who is to provide it?

Yeah, that too, it feels like this very easily can be used to violate sovereign rights...

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#70
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has more renewable energy than any one in the world

Does that mean China and Russia approve of making a clean environment a human right?

Better this toothless, vague "human right" than any of the more basic, legitimate and critical ones from their perspective.
Post reply on HN