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Clean environment could become U.N. human right

reuters.com

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Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#21

Post by beerandt »

croes wrote: post #11
mlindner wrote: post #5

If you declare too many things to a "human right" it removes wiggle room for good policy making. Also, the US already has stronger rules against vehicle pollution than the EU (in terms of pollution that directly damage health like NOx and PM). If it's going to become a "human right" then countries who propose it should be leading it in the first place.

>US already has stronger rules against vehicle pollution The whole US or only same states?

The whole US. I found it hard to believe how little diesel emissions are regulated in the EU, especially after the huge deal made of VW testing scandal.

For all of the rhetoric, I'd have thought the issue was more strenuously regulated.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#22

Post by fennecfoxen »

> "At national level, this right has been shown to empower people, particularly those most vulnerable to environmental damage or climate change, to drive change and hold governments to account"

Right, so one of the consequences would be that the US gives a bunch of activists permission to use the legal system to harass anything that they like — not just new projects, but everything that exists in the world. Perhaps we could go all Keystone XL on some Google data center for polluting the world with CO2 and global warming. You don't even need to believe in the cause, you just need to hate Google.

Meanwhile nations like China spewing godawful particulates all over Shanghai will surely WILL FOLLOW THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW AND ALLOW THE LITTLE GUY TO SPEAK UP AGAINST THE ABUSES OF THEIR STATE RUN INDUSTRY. Mmmhmm.

it's all stupid power games in the end, and this is NOT an effective way to get kids out of the NYCHA apartments slathered with lead paint (to use a local example)

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#23

Post by oytis »

Barrin92 wrote: post #12
oytis wrote: post #3

> Washington also referred to legal concerns as well as worries that recognising new rights could dilute traditional civil and political rights, according to sources following the talks. Totally makes sense to me really. It's just enables genocidal dictatorships to go full "what about" when called out for their crimes. Yes, we just exterminated a small nation, but look how much U.S. companies pollute!

not sure I follow, we can't create new ecological rights because some countries might do better on them than the US, so the only legitimate rights on the planet are the ones that extend the political power of the United States? Because you know the exact thing you're afraid of has actually been done in the name of civil liberties and political rights, how many small nations have been crushed in the name of freedom an…

Environmental concerns are important, human rights are important too, and they are not comparable. You can't compensate for the lack of human and civil rights by polluting less or buying carbon credits. Putting everything in the "human rights" bucket create an impression that you can.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#24

Post by yostrovs »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #19
croes wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>US already has stronger rules against vehicle pollution The whole US or only same states?

Generally the rules are stronger and the (post sale) enforcement is weaker (because turning the screws on the poors over a check engine light isn't as tractable for us as it is for Europe, generally speaking).

The discovery of cheating by European manufacturers regarding emissions happened in America. But yes, the little guy can drive with a check engine light in my state without worries.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#25

Post by hikerclimber1 »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #22

> "At national level, this right has been shown to empower people, particularly those most vulnerable to environmental damage or climate change, to drive change and hold governments to account" Right, so one of the consequences would be that the US gives a bunch of activists permission to use the legal system to harass anything that they like — not just new projects, but everything that exists in the world. Perhaps w…

Everything is subjective. Especially laws.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#26

Post by adventured »

oytis wrote: post #14
girvo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this as an honest question: why does that matter? Diplomatically, why would any other country care about a genocidal dictatorships pronouncements of hypocrisy? That already happens, and it already doesn’t stop sanctions and other consequences, from my limited understanding of geopolitics.

It matters as much as recognizing anything as a human right formally matters. U.N. is not good at enforcing human rights really, but it's better than nothing, and diluting it further is a step to "nothing" in my opinion.

It's not better than nothing. Entirely corrupting the definition of human rights by routinely putting the worst human rights offenders on the human rights council, is worse than doing nothing. It gives sanction to those human rights offenses by pretending those nations deserve to be on the human rights council, that they have earned equal representation on such a matter.

The UN would be doing the same thing if this context were to become real. Nobody will be inspecting China, Russia or 37 other dictatorships for environmental human rights abuses.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#27

Post by wizzwizz4 »

oytis wrote: post #23
Barrin92 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not sure I follow, we can't create new ecological rights because some countries might do better on them than the US, so the only legitimate rights on the planet are the ones that extend the political power of the United States? Because you know the exact thing you're afraid of has actually been done in the name of civil liberties and political rights, how many small nations have been crushed in the name of freedom an…

Environmental concerns are important, human rights are important too, and they are not comparable. You can't compensate for the lack of human and civil rights by polluting less or buying carbon credits. Putting everything in the "human rights" bucket create an impression that you can.

> You can't compensate for the lack of human and civil rights by polluting less or buying carbon credits.

To an extent, you can – obviously not by buying carbon credits, though. Doing things that actually improve (or, reduce less slowly) the living conditions of humans is comparable to poor living conditions of humans.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#28

Post by wayoutthere »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #22

> "At national level, this right has been shown to empower people, particularly those most vulnerable to environmental damage or climate change, to drive change and hold governments to account" Right, so one of the consequences would be that the US gives a bunch of activists permission to use the legal system to harass anything that they like — not just new projects, but everything that exists in the world. Perhaps w…

So because China won’t follow the rules, they shouldn’t exist and we should all spew as many particulates in the air as we can? Those activists are the only thing standing up for the interests of the people; the corporations have all the pull in the legislative world.

Nihilism is a good way to justify acting against the common good, which is exactly why we need more drastic positive action against climate change. China will do what it’s gonna do, but we can choose a better path for ourselves.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#30

Post by caoilte »

bamboozled wrote: post #8
throwawaybchr wrote: post #6

China has been denying people human rights daily, what does the UN do to them?

China is a disgusting bully. They’re intentionally rattling people in Taiwan by flying war planes at them to “stress them out”. The UN is a joke. Something should be done.

This is unhelpful whataboutery. China isn't directly relevant. I could just as truthfully point out that the USA is a disgusting bully and that would be unhelpful too.

We wouldn't think it reasonable if someone on trial for embezzlement asked the jury to acquit because there are other people out in the world committing murder.

We only put up with it in news and politics because we have normalized and accepted propaganda.

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