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London riots / UK riots: verified areas

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Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#61

Post by temphn »

SandB0x wrote: post #14

I'm in my flat in NW2 and I can hear police cars going down the Edgware Road. Fucking terrifying. The police can't keep up, according to the news they're showing up hours late to everything and they don't have any water cannons. Bad times. Edit: #riotcleanup tomorrow morning all over town: http://twitter.com/#!/search/riotcleanup

The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force necessary to put down the riot. If rioters knew they would be shot on sight, they would stop rioting.

As it is, police are afraid to crack down for fear that they'll be brought up on charges of "police brutality".

Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms.

EDIT: Amazed that someone downvoted this. Just proves the point that those who would actually use force to restore order will be called out as "committing police brutality."

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#62

Post by willyt »

teyc wrote: post #54
willyt wrote: post #5

Apparently the rioters are organising using blackberry messenger. Seems like the police are about 2 hours behind what's happening.

BBM. Doesn't the government have access to these?

Aren't they encrypted somehow? What was the thing in Saudi Arabia (might have been different middle east country) where the gov't banned blackberry because they couldn't snoop?

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#63

Post by Mz »

temphn wrote: post #61
SandB0x wrote: post #14

I'm in my flat in NW2 and I can hear police cars going down the Edgware Road. Fucking terrifying. The police can't keep up, according to the news they're showing up hours late to everything and they don't have any water cannons. Bad times. Edit: #riotcleanup tomorrow morning all over town: http://twitter.com/#!/search/riotcleanup

The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force necessary to put down the riot. If rioters knew they would be shot on sight, they would stop rioting. As it is, police are afraid to crack down for fear that they'll be brought up on charges of "police brutality". Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms. EDIT: Amazed that someone downvoted this…

Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms.

My ex was career military. I don't know about the UK, but he always said "You really don't want to bring in the military (for stuff like this). Police are trained to wound and bring them in alive. We are trained to shoot to kill."

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#64

Post by parallel »

guelo wrote: post #46
itg wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Started off as a protest against a police shooting (details will depend on which side you ask) and then escalated. Now it is just vandalizing, destroying property, and looting. Some BBC commenters were saying that for the young guys, the austerity measures with a combination of feeling marginalized, unemployed, and no hope for a future plays a part in this too.

I had always been told that UK cops didn't carry guns, when/why did that change? Was it a reaction to 9/11 or 7/7?

The city of London has it's own police force called the Meltropolitan Police (the Met). This is a different organisation to the normal English police. I think the Met carry guns but the normal police don't.

Rome has a similar thing with the Carabinieri, I understand these guys are part of the military.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#65

Post by electrichead »

nkassis wrote: post #59
polshaw wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that we are seeing any significant number of first generation immigrants here.

I think by immigrant communities he was also including immigrants children (1st 2nd generation or more). I've seen this used as to visible minorities in many places around the world. Including country that are mostly immigrants like Canada (where I'm from). What has been reported is that it's youth from poor neighborhoods. Considering the population composition of those neighborhoods, I'm going to guess that it's pro…

Everyone in Canada is an immigrant of some type - unless you are native

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#66

Post by Jach »

temphn wrote: post #61
SandB0x wrote: post #14

I'm in my flat in NW2 and I can hear police cars going down the Edgware Road. Fucking terrifying. The police can't keep up, according to the news they're showing up hours late to everything and they don't have any water cannons. Bad times. Edit: #riotcleanup tomorrow morning all over town: http://twitter.com/#!/search/riotcleanup

The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force necessary to put down the riot. If rioters knew they would be shot on sight, they would stop rioting. As it is, police are afraid to crack down for fear that they'll be brought up on charges of "police brutality". Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms. EDIT: Amazed that someone downvoted this…

Because using force to restore order has worked so well for Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Syria? Or are you implying that London citizens are pussies and will stand down where the other countries' citizens didn't/aren't? I highly doubt escalating will solve anything, but who knows.

Ed: Wrote this too quickly without thinking enough on it. I don't think violent response is the answer, but given the nature of the situation I'll shift my position to thinking it'd probably work in this case.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#67

Post by temphn »

Jach wrote: post #66
temphn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force necessary to put down the riot. If rioters knew they would be shot on sight, they would stop rioting. As it is, police are afraid to crack down for fear that they'll be brought up on charges of "police brutality". Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms. EDIT: Amazed that someone downvoted this…

Because using force to restore order has worked so well for Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Syria? Or are you implying that London citizens are pussies and will stand down where the other countries' citizens didn't/aren't? I highly doubt escalating will solve anything, but who knows. Ed: Wrote this too quickly without thinking enough on it. I don't think violent response is the answer, but given the nature of the situatio…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots#The_riot...

"The riots, beginning in the evening after the verdicts, peaked in intensity over the next two days, but ultimately continued for several days. A curfew and deployment of the National Guard began to control the situation; eventually U.S. Army soldiers and United States Marines were ordered to the city to quell disorder as well."

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#68

Post by Jach »

temphn wrote: post #67
Jach wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because using force to restore order has worked so well for Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Syria? Or are you implying that London citizens are pussies and will stand down where the other countries' citizens didn't/aren't? I highly doubt escalating will solve anything, but who knows. Ed: Wrote this too quickly without thinking enough on it. I don't think violent response is the answer, but given the nature of the situatio…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots#The_riot... "The riots, beginning in the evening after the verdicts, peaked in intensity over the next two days, but ultimately continued for several days. A curfew and deployment of the National Guard began to control the situation; eventually U.S. Army soldiers and United States Marines were ordered to the city to quell disorder as well."

Good point, we can both find cases where violent response "works" or "doesn't work".

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#69

Post by true_religion »

Jach wrote: post #66
temphn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force necessary to put down the riot. If rioters knew they would be shot on sight, they would stop rioting. As it is, police are afraid to crack down for fear that they'll be brought up on charges of "police brutality". Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms. EDIT: Amazed that someone downvoted this…

Because using force to restore order has worked so well for Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Syria? Or are you implying that London citizens are pussies and will stand down where the other countries' citizens didn't/aren't? I highly doubt escalating will solve anything, but who knows. Ed: Wrote this too quickly without thinking enough on it. I don't think violent response is the answer, but given the nature of the situatio…

> Or are you implying that London citizens are pussies and will stand down where the other countries' citizens didn't/aren't?

I'm not going to respond directly to this.

Rather, I'll point out that force is used because it is often effective.

There are innumerable instances of riots where the subsequent police/military crackdown actually suppressed the population.

The real question here is what makes London like Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, or Syria today rather than like all those countries in the past where rebellions were quelled?

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#70

Post by Kolya »

Jach wrote: post #66
temphn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force necessary to put down the riot. If rioters knew they would be shot on sight, they would stop rioting. As it is, police are afraid to crack down for fear that they'll be brought up on charges of "police brutality". Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms. EDIT: Amazed that someone downvoted this…

Because using force to restore order has worked so well for Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Syria? Or are you implying that London citizens are pussies and will stand down where the other countries' citizens didn't/aren't? I highly doubt escalating will solve anything, but who knows. Ed: Wrote this too quickly without thinking enough on it. I don't think violent response is the answer, but given the nature of the situatio…

In Africa and the Middle East, the riots were heavily motivated - the rioters had strong political reasons to be there. In London, it's just some socially disaffected youths and looting opportunists. So I don't think they are all that comparable.
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